Episode 4.8 The Living to Thrive with Cancer Podcast
===
Kathryn White: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Living to Thrive with Cancer podcast. A podcast about the big and little issues that come with living with cancer. I'm Kathryn White, a stage 4 colon cancer thriver, passionate about supporting others who have faced a cancer diagnosis, and are looking to feel empowered in taking back control of their health and happiness.
My own walk with cancer helped me to learn more about myself, and how to live with cancer. And it led me to become a holistic cancer coach so I can support others to move from survivor to thriver. So let's get started.
Welcome everyone to episode 4. 8 of the Living to Thrive with Cancer podcast. I am Kathryn White, your host, and I Super excited to be here today with Tamara Green, who is a certified nutritionist and the co founder of The Living Kitchen. Tamara, as I said, is a nutritionist, a chef, author, and TV host, and she grew up loving hamburgers.[00:01:00]
French fries, pizza, and chicken fingers. A shiny example that picky eating habits don't last forever. Along with her hamburger loving ways, she also suffered from pretty painful digestive issues and was eventually diagnosed with irritable bowel syndrome. Tamara was in chronic pain for nine years until she turned to food to heal herself.
After being completely symptom free since 2010. 2008. It's Tamara's passion to assist people to eliminate pain, find health, and eat nourishing real good food. She has a BA honors from McGill, went to the Institute of Holistic Nutrition to become a certified nutritionist, and she is a chef. Tamara combines her knowledge of nutrition and passion for cooking to work with clients to create lasting changes in their lives.
So thank you, Tamara, for being here today. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast.
Tamara Green: I feel very privileged and honored to be here.
Kathryn White: You are like a [00:02:00] culinary rock star. I love this.
Tamara Green: I mean, I do love good food.
Kathryn White: Good food is important. Yeah, food has been such a big part of the work that I do with cancer clients because they often come to me saying like, okay, what should I eat?
And I know I need to change how I eat. And of course we go farther into it with all of the mindset pieces. And I think that that's going to tie into our conversation today, but it really, at the foundation, I think food is just so healing and so important to talk about.
Tamara Green: Absolutely. Absolutely. It is something that we put into our bodies every single day and has an impact on every cell in our body.
So how can it not be one of the most important things that we need to think about?
Kathryn White: Yeah, and there's just so much misinformation around food, and so I think that's, you know, part of the conversation is clearing up the misinformation, but also, you know, providing the real solid knowledge that people need to have, [00:03:00] and also uncomplicating food.
Yes. People make food complicated.
Tamara Green: People make food very complicated.
Kathryn White: I literally read once that the perfect food to eat every day is an apple. Agree or disagree?
Tamara Green: Oh, I can't ever agree or disagree with things like these. I'm like, it is always an it depends answer. It depends. Do you like apples? Do apples feel good when you eat them?
Do you have an allergy to apples? You know, there's, there's so much to it. But in terms of. You know, the health of an apple? Great. It's got beautiful fiber, pectin, soluble fiber. It's a wonderful thing to eat.
Kathryn White: There you go. So, an apple a day keeps the doctor away? Maybe, maybe not. If it's good for you, put it in your body.
Yes. Yes. All right. I have some questions that I want to ask you and we're going to frame them around looking at your personal connection [00:04:00] to cancer and what you did about it, your newest cookbook, good food, good mood, and your thoughts on styles of eating. So let's get into this. All right. So my first question is, can you tell the listeners why you became a nutritionist and what inspires you about your work?
Tamara Green: So why I became a nutritionist has, it's very interesting because it doesn't have much to do with my career path of who I chose to work with and what I do. But why I became a nutritionist, in all honesty, was kind of for two reasons. One was. As you mentioned in the bio at the beginning, when I was a kid, I had probably the worst eating habits.
I also had really horrible digestive issues, like I was constantly in pain, constantly in digestive pain. And I also had a ton of anxiety as a kid. And so all of these things sort of together, I didn't [00:05:00] understand them at the time. I was a kid myself. My parents kind of did their best to try and figure things out and help me.
They didn't know what they were doing and what kind of support really was required. And so as I got older and I started to change my eating habits and my taste buds started to change, I got really interested in understanding nutrition. And at the same time, I was actually working, um, growing food in the city.
I was in the urban agriculture space.
Kathryn White: Oh, I love that.
Tamara Green: Yeah. And I loved the idea of being able to grow some of our own food. And I was working with kids at the time and I would watch them grow food and then taste the food that they grew because they grew it and they would be food that they typically would never even try.
And so these two things together of like seeing children growing food, going through my own digestive issues, seeing how food [00:06:00] really, really helped heal my body. was one of the reasons that entered me into nutrition school. So that was the entry point in. Now when I was in school, um, I learned a lot.
There's so much beautiful information that expanded and stretched me. And at the same time, simultaneously, I was in my early ish 20s and friends of mine became diagnosed with cancer. And they were also in their 20s at the time. And so this, there was something about being in nutrition school, learning about the health of the body, learning about how the body works.
And then hearing about my friends who are in their twenties, cause at any point in your life, at any point in anyone's life, we think we're invincible. Not everyone thinks that, but I think most people think like, I'm fine. It's fine. We're probably, I'm invincible. And [00:07:00] I think you especially think that when you're younger.
So when I would see my friends get, and it was more than one, get these diagnoses, I was like, what is going on here? And there was something about being in nutrition school, seeing this happen that kind of just lit a fire under me of like, I want to help. I want to figure out how I can help with the knowledge that I have and the skills that I'm learning.
What can I do to be of service to people who are going through cancer treatment? For their caregivers as well, because that's a huge job in and of itself. Yes,
Kathryn White: that is a whole other conversation. That is a whole
Tamara Green: other conversation for their family members. There was just so much there. And so that was my first entry point.
So it's, it was like, I didn't necessarily go to school and study specifically. nutrition and cancer, being around people who were my age in their 20s [00:08:00] really steered me into this path. And so what I did with that is I was like, okay, if I'm going down this path, I better know some more information here. And so I really started to do more research.
I started working with clients one on one, doing consulting, consulting around food, around what was going on with them. And then I saw that there was this. gap between what they needed to do and they weren't actually doing it because of whether it's the symptoms from actual treatment, whether it was just too hard to implement, whether they're too busy.
And so really just started cooking for people, started a meal delivery company, started cooking. Going into people's homes and cooking their meals for them and, you know, the recipes, depending on where someone was at spanned from easy smoothies and soups to, you know, total liquids to like full meals that would be satiating and feed the entire family and no one had to feel left out regardless of where their [00:09:00] appetite was at.
So, um, that was really my foray into bridging this world of nutrition and cancer. This
Kathryn White: I love that. I love your reasoning behind it, like seeing that gap, because there's a huge gap, a huge, huge gap. And, and so now that you're here today, and we're going to talk about your cookbook, which I have started dabbling in and love so much.
Um, but when I was going through my chemotherapy, I like I literally said to my medical team, what should I eat? And they were like, anything you can keep down, like anything that, you know, you can get in your body and I was like, but I'm not nauseated. I was blessed to not really have nausea. And I just was like, that just doesn't feel like a good answer to me.
There's got to be more. And even, I won't throw any organizations under the bus completely, but yeah, that's it. Cookbooks that were available, recipe books in the chemo suite that were loaded with food that I [00:10:00] intuitively was like that doesn't seem like something someone who is on a cellular level trying to heal their body, or at least stay strong through the process should be putting those things into their body.
It didn't make sense to me.
Tamara Green: Yes, yes. And I think I think doctors are incredibly well intentioned and it is just that that is not their expertise and that's not the knowledge and they really are just going to give you an answer that's going to ensure safety. So that, so I, cause we had clients come to us all the time and be like, my doctor said, don't eat this.
And now I'm freaking out or, or it doesn't matter, but you're saying it does matter. And. And your doctor's intention is to just really get you through the process of, and be strong. And so a lot of like, okay, my body needs to be strong. [00:11:00] They're just thinking in terms of calories
Kathryn White: and not losing
Tamara Green: weight. But they're actually not thinking like you said on a scale.
Cellular level. They're just thinking of okay I don't want to have this person lose all their muscle mass and I don't want them to lose too much weight and that is Very valid. However, I think what you're saying too is some of the cookbooks and I've you know, seen a lot of these cookbooks is Having really high glycemic foods in there Not the best thing for your body Not the best thing for your body, uh, when you're going through it, like tons of foods that might even for someone who maybe is going through like digestive issues, like having real, like, you know, fatty type hearty meals.
Okay. Maybe they're comforting, but this person can't actually digest it very well. And that's going to cause or, you know, issue. So what I never want to, I never want to take the doctor and be like, well, they're wrong there because [00:12:00] I think the intention is correct. However, they're just not updating that knowledge because that is not their field of genius.
Yeah. Genius administering the chemotherapy or the, you know, radiation and like knowing what exact cocktails and yeah.
Kathryn White: Yeah, and that is such a great, um, perspective on it. And I do appreciate that you wove in there about, you know, digestive issues and the different things that are happening in people's bodies.
Like when I started chemotherapy, I had had half of my colon removed and nobody had even talked to me about the impact that would have on uptake of nutrients or elimination from my body. And then halfway through my chemo treatments, I had the whole right lobe of my liver removed, which also took my gallbladder with it.
And so me and fat, that is not a great combo. Like I have to be very cognizant. Onion rings are not. My friend, because I can't process it, but I'm not, you know, someone who's going through the process of cancer [00:13:00] doesn't necessarily have the emotional capacity or the, the, um, uh, energetic capacity to research like, well, what happens when half of my colon is taken out?
Or, oh, what is the purpose of a gallbladder? Like, we're not really taught these things. So, and then tie in the food piece. It's like, well,
Tamara Green: Yeah, yeah. Especially if it's a big change for someone. Like a big food change. Like, wow, I've never even used these ingredients, or this is not how I've ever eaten before.
So it's, it is, it can be very overwhelming for sure, but it's very important. It's very important.
Kathryn White: Yeah, and that's what, so turning to the cookbook. That's what I love about the cookbook, and for, you know, the people in video, they can see that I'm looking at it, if you're just listening, I'm, I'm glancing over at, um, even just a very simple recipe that I pulled up, a healing miso soup recipe.
So things I love about the cookbook are, there are symbols in there that are very, you know, Directive of if you [00:14:00] need energy, if you are, you know, having digestion issues, if you need hydration. And I think that's really valuable because even like in this day and age, we live in this world of symbols, right?
So these symbols are very like, if you need look at this, but I also, you know, going through the book, um, I find the recipes very straightforward. And, and not a lot of ingredients. Like, I, they're not, I don't find them overwhelming. There's a few that have a lot, but it's mostly because it's the seasonings that are in them.
It's, they're not like high time, high, you know, need recipes. And that's something that I feel is very important for people with cancer because, bring it back to the caregiver. You know, the person who's like, I just need to get food in you and the rest of us and I can't do it. have this complicated, I find them, I find them to be very straightforward and, um, available ingredient recipes, which on behalf of us, all of us, we love.
I thank you.
Tamara Green: Yeah, yes, [00:15:00] you're right. When, when creating our first cookbook, The Living Kitchen, um, it's made for people going through cancer and their caregivers. It's made for, with that in mind. And with that in mind, we wanted to really think about, well, if, if a caregiver is preparing a meal, Let's say, or even if someone who is experiencing cancer is preparing a meal, and they can eat it, can their family eat it too?
Can't it be good for everyone? Can't it have nutrients that's building everyone's body and supporting, and maybe it's repairing in different ways? Because we're all, you know, bio individual, but, but it should work for everybody. And, um, and yeah, there are definitely symbols in there for specific symptoms.
If you're experiencing a specific side effect, what you can eat, you know, what might help that specific side effect. Um, but yes, with the in mind of like, okay, there's not going to be a ton of ingredients. [00:16:00] There might be things that might be a stretch for you, but you can do it. You can do it. And hopefully it is not overwhelming and, uh, you'll enjoy it.
Kathryn White: Yeah. And two, I always say to my clients, like, when you find recipes that you're curious about or that you think would feel good for you and people say, you know, when someone's diagnosed, they're like, well, what can I do? How can I help you? Give them the recipe. Say, I would really like you to make me a double batch of this healing miso soup.
For all of the reasons that I have no idea why it's going to be good for me, but I know it's going to be good for me, because the symbols tell me I need this, the recipe is simple, and I'm, my doctor says I need to stay hydrated, or whatever.
Tamara Green: That is the most brilliant thing ever that you just said, and I've never thought about it because in terms of, I've always thought, you know, when people say I want to help you, it then puts the onus on the person to figure out.
And that's just another responsibility. Right. And so what most people do is they're like, I'll just make a [00:17:00] bunch of food and you know, I'll send it over. And it's typically like, we used to talk to, you know, a lot of our clients, they'd be like so many lasagnas. Oh my God. I got so many lasagnas. So many, like one, you know, one dish lasagnas and really that's actually not, you know, it's comforting, but it might not be the best thing for you in that moment.
Or, you know, lasagnas tend to be really big, so maybe it'll last like dozens, right? But what you just said there of like, Oh, pick out recipes and send them to your people. That is genius because so many people want to help. They don't know how. They want to provide food, but this is like. Like, almost take pictures of them, have them in a, you know, an album in your photos in your phone, and then just shoot them off to people.
That's brilliant. Yeah, thanks.
Kathryn White: You can use that
Tamara Green: one.
Kathryn White: I will. Yeah, and like, even in the smoothies, and so I'm all about meal prep, we [00:18:00] could talk for days about food, you and I, but even the meal prep, like making, Taking some of the smoothie recipes and pre making smoothie packages and then just adding the liquid when you go to like having them in the freezer bundled up ready to go.
These are things that make caregivers lives easier that friends can do for you. They can drop off batches of soup, batches of like, um, even salads, like pre making salads. There's just so many opportunities when you have easy to follow and healthy health building recipes. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah.
Absolutely. Beautiful. I'm so grateful for this cookbook and I'm just gonna do a shout out to the um, the miso cod. Recipe.
Tamara Green: So good.
Kathryn White: It's so good. If you, if you don't like fish, you're missing out. I'm sorry.
Tamara Green: So you can put it on tofu by the way, or chicken. It actually, or even chickpeas. It works. It's like, it's just a divine, you know, marinade topping that goes on.
Kathryn White: Beautiful. Versatility in [00:19:00] recipes. And again, you know, when someone is in the throes of cancer might not be their experimental stage in life necessarily. And so there are very also not. complicated, very simple, wholesome foods that are easy to, to wrap your brain around. Some people have probably never even heard of miso.
So how do you like, but it's super good for you. And we're going to talk about it in terms of, um, your newest cookbook, which I think is totally brilliant and is in my world linked to cancer also. It's called Good Food, Good Mood, and I have it also right here beside me. But what I love about this book is that it touches on mental health.
And mental health is such a huge part of the cancer process. Like that it is one of the biggest things that I end up talking about with clients. And, um, on my bookshelf behind me, I have probably about three or four books on the gut and the gut brain connection and how important that is. [00:20:00] So, because cancer patients.
are completely, their gut microbiome completely disrupted, as you know, by antibiotics, by anesthesia, by chemotherapy, like just there's so much disruption in the gut. And we know that 70 percent of the gut of the immune system is built in the gut. So what is happening to the immune system As it's being disrupted, and then I recently read that 95 percent of your serotonin is built in your gut.
Tamara Green: Yeah. Yeah. Can
Kathryn White: you just talk about this whole piece around the, the good food, good mood, the gut, and, and how it relates to, to my listeners?
Tamara Green: Sure. So our bodies are completely interconnected. And what happens in one area of our body often will relate to another area of our body. And so this is especially true of our gut.[00:21:00]
And our brain and it's called the gut brain access and it's basically where it's a bi directional communication between our gut and our brain through something called the vagus nerve. And essentially what happens is, you know, the brain will go and like seek out information and things will come back up.
And there's just a lot of communication about what is going on inside the body between these two systems and organs. Thanks. And that's true that 70%, some people say even more, of our immune system sits within our gut. And when we talk about our gut, I think it can sometimes be a confusing thing, like, what is the gut?
I know I've heard a lot of people say this. And truthfully, the gut is actually, goes from your mouth down your esophagus, your stomach, your small intestines, your large intestine, and then out to your rectum. But when you and I are specifically [00:22:00] talking about the gut now, we're actually more Speaking about, um, our colon.
And so that is where we have trillions. of microbes that live there. And these microbes that live inside our colon are responsible for so many different things inside our body. One is protecting the lining of our gut, and that is really helpful in terms of our immune system because that way different pathogens or different things don't go inside our bloodstream.
Um, But also because what you said that these microbes inside our gut are actually partly responsible for creating those neurotransmitters and serotonin being one of the neurotransmitters. Now, serotonin is kind of known as like the happiness chemical, but it also helps with digestion. It helps with motility as our food moves throughout our digestive system.
Um, and so. [00:23:00] Although the serotonin from that's manufactured in the gut can't actually cross the blood brain barrier and get to our brain, it still creates a lot of connection and communication with our brain. And so that's why what's really fascinating in all these different gut studies where people look Either at stool samples or people who are suffering from various mental health conditions, they will often find that people who have Crohn's or colitis or IBD or IBS or any kind of inflammatory something that's going on in the bowel, oftentimes these people will also report certain mental health issues, whether it's Anxiety or depression.
And so it's just really interesting. Like I said, that one area of the body is connected to all areas of our body. And so when I told you my story at the very beginning that I had, um, [00:24:00] really intense pain, digestive issues, IBS, and anxiety. It actually wasn't until I was a lot older that I suddenly started connecting dots.
Like, oh, maybe, you know, it's never a one plus one equals two. It's not like I ate hamburgers and french fries and then I was anxious. Like, yeah, no, that's not how our bodies work. We're too dynamic of beings for that. However, it wasn't until I was older that I started connecting the dots of Wow, I had so much, uh, damage and inflammation happening in my gut and I also had a lot of anxiety and I am sure there was some kind of connection between the two.
And so, really, our mental health is made up by so many different things. It's made up by the feelings of safety, our community, like, you know, how we process our fear, um, but it's also made up by the, you know, how our body [00:25:00] is in this moment. And so, although if you're on specific antibiotics and things like that, you're not going to take probiotics at the time because you want the antibiotics to actually work.
Right. However, there is a way to still really populate your gut with incredible bacteria. And you do this, honestly, through food and through colorful food, through fiber, because you do want those microbes creating not just serotonin, you want them creating dopamine, your pleasure chemical. You want them creating GABA, your calming chemical.
You want them creating, uh, norepinephrine or adrenaline, like your alert chemical. These are all things that we need in our system in order to function in day to day life. And so while there's so many, um, potentially complicated answers of like, how do we get a healthy, diverse gut? I'm always about bringing it back to simplicity, [00:26:00] which is, can you include two to three different colors?
into the majority of your meals. Mmm. And those colors not only have polyphenols, which are incredible for your gut, but each one of them has different types of fiber within them that go on to feed different types of microbes in your gut that all have this synergistic relationship with each other. So, although our body is so complex, our eating doesn't have to be.
Kathryn White: I love that statement. I love that right there. Like Yeah, we are our own. I always talk about our physical terrain, like where you were raised, what you ate when you were a child, how you were parented, any traumas that you have, any, you know, what, what water you drank, all of these things create our physical terrain.
And so you talked about, you know, biodiversity and then there's bioavailability and all of these things, but when you just simplify it down to whole foods, just a couple of [00:27:00] different colors at every meal, and just creating this diversity In the food, in a very simple way, back to the should I eat an apple a day kind of question, like, it has so much impact in its own way.
And then add a few other things. It doesn't have to be complicated.
Tamara Green: Yes, there's, you know, it can get incredibly complicated and incredibly strict and scary. And here's the thing. If you want to go down that path. And you're ready. Like there's nothing wrong with exploring something that you think might.
help you. But I think for the majority of people, they're like, I just want to figure out a way to eat better for where I'm at right now so that I can get through this with the best ability, capacity possible. And so [00:28:00] that's where I like to bring in more of this like moderate, simple, you know, major in the majors, don't minor in the minors, like major in the, the whole foods.
Yeah. Good color, good proteins, healthy fats. And, and go from there.
Kathryn White: Yeah. Yeah. And that, that is so perfect because, um, I wanted to ask you about this whole, there are so many different styles of eating available. And I have had clients come to me, um, one in particular said her liver surgeon put her on a keto diet.
He's like, just two weeks. I need you on keto for two weeks. We want to shrink the tumor a little bit as if we can, and then we do the surgery. So we talked around what that looks like. But. You know, there's keto, and alkaline, and vegan, and raw, and paleo, like there's just so many. And I think it's overwhelming, food is overwhelming, at least in my world.
[00:29:00] Food became very overwhelming, and I developed terrible food anxiety. Is this food going to hurt me, or is it going to help me? And, you know, is it going to go right through me, or is it going to come back up again? Just all of these factors around food. So, I guess my question is like, in your professional opinion, when someone is like, no, I have to be eating this, or should I be, like the shoulding that we do, or I have been told that this is, or, you know, the internet with all of its advice on Instagram and whatever, do you have a philosophy around food for people who are intentionally working on healing in their body?
Thank you.
Tamara Green: Mm hmm. Yeah, so I think that the example you just gave is actually a great example of, oh, when it needs to be a therapeutic diet that's short and Is intentional, like that doctor saying, okay, we want to try keto for two weeks to see if [00:30:00] it's going to have an impact.
Kathryn White: And
Tamara Green: I think that that is really interesting to me versus like, this is now the way you eat and.
And I think there is a place for everything. And everything always works for someone, but not everything works for everyone. Oh, that's a great philosophy. Like, keto is really gonna work for someone. Strict vegan is really gonna work for someone. Uh, raw is really gonna work for someone. But it's not going to work for everyone.
And I get how overwhelming it is to go like, well, is it going to work for me? How do I know it's going to work for me? Should I try this? Should I try this? And I, I think it all depends on your starting place too. So if you're starting from like, I don't even eat whole foods. I don't know. Like that is the entry point.
That is the entry point and I really believe there's, there's partly of what [00:31:00] your, uh, what most doctors said, what I said at the beginning, how they're really trying to prevent weight loss and muscle wasting is a big component of this. And so if you are eating this kind of like more balanced, more moderate, has color, has space and room for you to be you in your diet, um, that will really help.
Prevent a lot of the things that the doctor is very scared for for you, or does not scared for that's not the right way to put it does not want to see it happen for right, right. And so, my personal philosophy is. Like, basically, it's protein, color, and healthy fats, and I know that can seem so general.
You're like, oh, that's so, that's such general advice. But if you look at each meal through this lens of like, okay, can I get three different colors? In this snack, in this meal, it could be a smoothie, [00:32:00] it could be a soup, is it, right? It's like, okay, check. Can I get something that has protein? Whether I'm going to be vegetarian, vegan, or omnivore.
So whether I'm going to have some kind of chicken or fish, or I'm going to do tofu or tempeh or beans or sprouted beans. That's all going to contribute to potentially more fiber, but definitely more protein. Some of the omnivore choices will have fat just included in them. And then adding these healthy fats through, um, whether it's the oils that you're cooking in, or the marinades, or the dressings, or you're adding nuts on top of things, or you're adding coconut, or coconut milk, or avocados, and it's just, it's like, If you can play with flavor too, or texture, do those things.
Cause sometimes those are sort of the block. It's like you need things to have a certain texture to it. You need things to have a certain, like even color could be [00:33:00] kind of off putting or it could be really appetizing for someone. And so we talk about this a lot in the first cookbook, the living kitchen, but my philosophy really does come from this.
this balance placed. But I also don't, um, you know, I, I don't admonish, is that the right word? Someone who going to go more strict. Right. With what they choose.
Kathryn White: Right. If it's such a very personal choice. And so having a little bit of education around it. allows you to make informed choices. And then, you know, I, I do always say like, I'm not a doctor or a nurse and I'm not a nutritionist, but what I do know is my lived experience with food and going through cancer.
And so, um, it's not so much everything in moderation, but it's just being cognizant of what are you putting in your body and And how does your body respond to it? It's like that internal self awareness of oh my gut [00:34:00] feels off now like I'm having a pain in my side or, or, you know, it's going right through me or, or even just how can I make this so simple that it doesn't hurt my brain and, and make me confused and upset.
Right.
Tamara Green: I, you know, something that I always come back to is food has the power to build us and food has the power to tear us down, too. Kind of in the way that you just said before, onion rings aren't my friend. Though, that's an example of food that tears you down. And so, I think the more, sometimes listen to your body is, uh, tricky advice, especially if you're going through, cancer.
However, if you can listen to your body's sensations. Oh, I love that. That is a whole different experience. Um, in terms of how do you feel after you eat these things? Are you feeling like [00:35:00] bloated, stuffed, pressure, tingly, uh, you know, kind of like, whoa, like an energy surge? Are you feeling the, I feel, um, I feel like, I don't know, my digestive system just, just feels a little like things are moving in there, but it, It kind of feels like it's even keel or it's okay.
So I really like listening to the cues of our sensations and using sensations as information of is something working or not working. Now we're not always going to interpret all the sensations correctly because There's so much to it. Yeah. However, you know, some of it is really clear. Like I eat onion rings and it goes right through me.
Great. That sensation of feeling that, uh, that pain, that pressure, that, Oh, that those are all sensations that are saying to you, Hey, Kathryn, not a great choice.
Kathryn White: Yeah. I love this so much because, and, and this is a beautiful reframe for me. Instead of listen to your [00:36:00] body, listen to the sensations because With the clients that I work with and the people that are listening, there's already so much.
Like a laundry list of emotions going on just and thoughts about the body and a lot of like, I did this to my body, my body doesn't love me, my body is rejecting me, my body is fighting me, like, and so to, to take it back and not make it so big. And make it like about sensations, because I think everyone can resonate with, oh, like that made me feel gassy, or that made me feel like I had this little sharp pain in my tummy that I've recognized now is I can't digest those oils because I've taken the education further.
But that, that is like gold, that statement right there, to listen to the sensations.
Tamara Green: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree, because I do think that sometimes the phrase of listen to your body can be very triggering. [00:37:00] Uh, so listening to your body's sensations just kind of reframes it in a bit of a different way and makes it specific.
Kathryn White: Oh yeah, that's so good. That's so good. Um, sometimes I'll have a client say like, I had a specific client who was like, it's my daughter's birthday, and I, she wants to have chocolate cake, and I want to have chocolate cake, but I have cancer, and there's all this stuff around sugar, which is a whole other podcast episode.
Um, and, and what do I do? And so I said, do you want to eat the cake? Can you eat a smaller piece? Maybe scrape the icing off of it. Maybe just eat the cake, bless it, thank it, be grateful for it in that moment, and then move on. I think there needs to be a lot of grace in eating also. Sometimes I eat french fries.
I do. I'm honest about it. But not all the time. I'm owning it. I eat french fries [00:38:00] sometimes. I did choose a salad the other day instead. The lady was like, are you sure you don't want the fries? I was like, I'm having the salad, do not talk me out of it. Ah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I, I appreciate this conversation so much because it really, I feel like it's demystified some of the, the aspects of food as related to just the body in general and then, you know, throw that layer of mental health and that layer of cancer on top of it.
So, like, my key takeaways are listen to the sensations, get as many colors into you as you can, the protein, the fat, the fiber, like, really eat in a way that feels good in your body and takes care of you, and farm out your recipes to other people so that they can do the work. They can do the heavy lifting for you.
Tell them what you want, tell them what you need, and they'll do it. People will do whatever you ask them because they just want to help.
Tamara Green: Definitely. Definitely. [00:39:00] Yes. Yes.
Kathryn White: Beautiful. All right. I have one more question for you. I always end my podcast episodes with this, and that is, what does living to thrive mean to you?
Living to
Tamara Green: thrive means that I am constantly working to live into my most vital self. regardless of all of the things that are coming up in life. So we have so many emotions that we're constantly riding and I feel like to get stuck in any of them, whether it's emotions we think are positive, like happy or excited or emotions we normally categorize as bad, like sad or mad or angry, like I'm just like, Oh, I want to ride my emotions.
But with the intention that I am [00:40:00] here to be my most vitally alive self. And if I am here to be my most vitally alive self, then I can find joy and enjoyment even when things are really hard and difficult, and even when things are really great and wonderful. So I would say, yeah, living to thrive, like learning to enjoy as my
Kathryn White: vital self.
Oh, I love that so much. I love that so much because, you know, sometimes we forget that it's okay to be joyful when you have cancer. People think that they just need to be the solemn, dedicated patient, whereas I'm like, get out there and do the things. Be your vibrant self. And sometimes that means, like, just going for a walk around the block, depending on where you are, right?
But if that brings you joy, because that, that joy, that serotonin, that dopamine hit, you know, you were talking about in terms of all of this, [00:41:00] is, that is vitality, that is living right there. I love that.
Tamara Green: Yeah, and it's like living within, where you're at too. Yes. Yeah. And the energy that comes with it too.
You know, the, that energy is quite palpable too. So
Kathryn White: yeah. Beautiful. Thank you. Oh my gosh. There's just, I think truly that you and I could talk for hours and hours about all of these things. So just a little background Tamara and I met in person at a, uh, cancer related conference in Oakville this past fall.
And we were both speaking at it and. We instantly connected and I knew that she would be an outstanding guest on the Living to Thrive with Cancer podcast. So thank you for being here. Um, really quick before we call this a day, where can people find you?
Tamara Green: Yes, people can find me online if you are into still going to websites at [00:42:00] livingkitchenwellness.
com. You can also find me on Instagram at Living Kitchen Co. And you can find my two cookbooks wherever cookbooks are sold. The first one is called The Living Kitchen and the second one is called Good Food, Good
Kathryn White: Mood. Highly recommend. Highly recommend all of it. So, and um, I will put all of that information in the show notes so that people can go and seek you out.
And, um, and I just have to ask, are you still working with private clients? Do you see clients in a, in a clinical fashion or? Yeah, yes. I still do consulting and coaching. Yes. Okay. So they can find you if they're looking for that also. Yes. Wonderful. All right. Well, um, I just want to thank you so much for everything that you have shared today.
This is just a really, um, this is a really big heart moment for me to talk about food with someone who is also passionate about food and to support the listeners of this podcast [00:43:00] in whatever way they can. Um, demystifying some of the things around food and making it just a little, little bit easier for them.
So, thank you Tamara for being here and, um, I am looking forward to getting this episode out in the near future and for people being able to tune in and find you. Outside of this podcast. So thank you everyone for listening today, and we will be back in January with The next half of the season of the living to thrive with cancer podcast.
Thank you so much for being here today I hope you have a beautiful rest of your day and may you live your life to your fullest follow your heart and thrive
