The Power of Touch for Healing
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[00:00:00] Kathryn White: Welcome to the Living to Thrive with Cancer podcast. A podcast about the big and little issues that come with living with cancer. I'm Kathryn White, a stage 4 colon cancer thriver, passionate about supporting others who have faced a cancer diagnosis, and are looking to feel empowered in taking back control of their health and happiness.
[00:00:19] My own walk with cancer helped me to learn more about myself. And how to live with cancer, and it led me to become a holistic cancer coach so I can support others to move from Survivor to thrive. So let's get started.
[00:00:35] Hello friends, and welcome to episode 4.12 of the Living to Thrive with Cancer podcast. I am Kathryn White , a certified holistic cancer coach, a published author, and the host of the Living to Thrive with Cancer podcast. Before we dive into the episode, if you are a new listener, I want to welcome you to the podcast.
[00:00:54] As a cancer thriver, I use my stories and experience with stage four colon cancer to guide you through your walk with cancer. As a holistic cancer coach, I want to help you to create a health building lifestyle, manage your stress, and help you to navigate the day in and day out stuff that comes up when you have cancer.
[00:01:12] If you find what you've learned here today to be helpful, please share it with other people, you know, that could benefit from this episode. Sharing helps me to support more people living with cancer and to help them move from survivor to thriver. And you can go ahead and subscribe to the podcast wherever you're listening, follow it on YouTube.
[00:01:29] And I would love for you to head to the show notes and get your name on my Thriver community email list. You can follow my path to thriving there and see how I'm using what I've learned to support you in your walk with cancer. And when you sign up, I will send you a free little gift that you can download and use in your life.
[00:01:49] In today's episode, I am talking with Jennifer Bartley. Jennifer graduated from the advanced massage therapy program at Fanshawe College in London, Ontario in 2023. She received a diploma in health and fitness promotions in 2021 from Fanshawe College and certification for 200 hours of yoga teacher training in 2021.
[00:02:12] For many years, she worked as a chiropractic health assistant and loved being a part of a wellness team. She was inspired to return to school and become a registered massage therapist because she wanted to have a larger role in helping people find their best state of wellness. In 2022, she was offered a position at the St.
[00:02:30] Thomas Elgin General Hospital as a wellness coach. Her role is to provide stretching breaks. Yoga and mindfulness sessions throughout the hospital to all staff members. Jennifer has found this role to be immensely rewarding. In her time, Jennifer is a passionate hockey mom with two of her five daughters playing competitive hockey in local leagues.
[00:02:50] In her spare time, she enjoys running, hiking, yoga, and paddle boarding. Jennifer says, I love being very active as I believe it is an essential part of reducing stress and achieving overall wellness. So, hello, Jennifer, and welcome to the podcast. Hello. I'm so happy to have you here today. And full disclosure to everyone that's listening, Jennifer is a very dear friend of mine.
[00:03:15] I was one of her teachers in her yoga teacher training. We have worked together in the past and she is my massage therapist. And that's sort of what inspired me to bring Jennifer onto the podcast because she knows, what a cancer body looks like and she knows the benefits of massage. And so that's what we're going to talk about today.
[00:03:35] Jennifer Bartley: Yay! I'm very excited actually to be here and talk with you today about massage therapy
[00:03:39] Kathryn White: and to share with you what I know. Awesome. Well, let's get right into it. So, can you start by telling the listeners a little bit about your own health story and what led you to, get into the health and wellness community?
[00:03:53] I know we talked about your certifications, but maybe a little bit of insight into the who you actually are.
[00:04:00] Jennifer Bartley: Sure. So in 2017, I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis, which is an autoimmune disease, which led me actually to find a flyer that you had posted and we came together and we talked about how the aspect of nutrition and stress levels were probably affecting my gut.
[00:04:23] So that kind of led me into a deep dive of all things gut related. And then all things stress related too, as well, and that then led me to the path of, like, how can I, make some change in how I'm eating day to day, how I'm viewing food, how I am preparing food for my family, and then what am I doing, aside from, I was already an avid runner, I loved going to the gym, so I already had the fitness stuff kind of in the background, however, I needed a bit more of, of calming.
[00:04:59] Sort of things right like just I was doing everything kind of high cardio kind of like high impact type of Fitness, right? So I needed something that was more slow you know to kind of slow my nervous system down a little bit which was like a really interesting concept to me because I actually have an ADHD brain, so my brain just wants to go, right?
[00:05:21] So the thought of like, oh wait, like if I slow down and be a little bit more mindful, then what is that going to do to my health overall? How is that going to impact me sending this disease into remission? So then that led to the restorative yoga that I ended up signing up for with you as well. And then you're like, hey, how about you become a yoga teacher?
[00:05:47] So I was like, okay. Which was what led me to do yoga teacher training and I just kept going from there. So yeah, like I feel in my heart that everything happens for a reason. So I think, you know, that was the catalyst that got me going. It got me going to school. It got me learning more about my body, about you know, how I relate to the world even.
[00:06:16] It was, yeah, it's just been a
[00:06:18] Kathryn White: journey really. Amazing. I feel so grateful to be part of it and to have watched you go through the whole process from that initial meeting in a coffee shop in town to being here today. I love what you said about like starting to, to be more aware of your body and to recognize that stress was such a huge part of it because you know, we, we talk on the podcast and we talk in my coaching, that, that stress really is such a catalyst for dis ease in the body.
[00:06:51] Jennifer Bartley: And I really think, I didn't realize that I was in that constant state of The fight or flight or running from the lion because to me, I didn't feel stress, right? Like when we talk about stress, you, I think I had that such a disconnect, if you will, from like what stress actually looks like in the body and then, and then how it comes out, right?
[00:07:16] So I feel like there's this disconnect and I see it. It's mostly at the hospital, actually, when I'm working at the hospital, I see that disconnect from like, oh, I'm running from the lion, right? But there's no actual lion. So I learned, a lot about that fight or flight, a lot about the cortisol levels in my body, and then, and then how to maintain.
[00:07:41] And like, what do you do with it, right? When you find that you're in such a state of stress, how do you calm yourself down, right? So, you know, yoga taught me a lot about mindfulness, about the need to slow down, to go to that calm place, right? To the quiet, right? Where often I would avoid those spaces,
[00:08:05] Kathryn White: right?
[00:08:07] Jennifer Bartley: I would avoid it because it felt so uncomfortable in my body and I couldn't figure out why. Right. I couldn't figure it out, so it was a learning process and I think that yoga teacher training, the rabbit holes I went down just alone with that was, was crazy. But it all led to massage therapy, which is amazing as well.
[00:08:28] And they're all interconnected, fitness, massage, and yoga, and mindfulness, very, very connected.
[00:08:36] Kathryn White: Yeah, like, oh gosh, there's so much in there, like, but let's just like continue with that last thought like the yoga and the massage and, and, you know, the stress, all of these things, they're all interconnected.
[00:08:48] Can you just elaborate on how that
[00:08:50] Jennifer Bartley: would say to you, the majority of what I treat in a day are stress related issues felt in the body. So people like, yeah. When people think of massage therapy, I sometimes think they think, oh, low back pain, right? Because that's what people talk about, my low back's hurting.
[00:09:09] I treat low back, but I actually treat more stress related, like the upper back, the shoulders, the neck, that tension that we feel, that we hold in the body. That's what I treat day to day, right? Because pain is interesting, right? Like it, you're feeling pain in your body, but what is the root of that pain?
[00:09:29] Right? What's causing that pain, right? And often there's this disconnect of like, Oh right, I'm super stressed today. That's why I'm feeling it in my upper, like a lot of it's mechanical too, like posture and all that stuff too, but we hold these things in ourselves, right? Like, I'm sure I know that you know this right because you've learned a lot about that through your cancer journey all the things that have contributed to your health and wellness, right?
[00:09:59] Yeah. What went wrong, what's going right, right? So I think it's an interesting concept that people have this disconnect where they don't understand that stress could be causing your pain. It is an actual little nugget. Of overall health, right?
[00:10:18] Kathryn White: Mmm.
[00:10:19] Jennifer Bartley: Yes. And the tension we hold and feel in our body. And how then that contributes to like, how we're able to move our body through space.
[00:10:30] Kathryn White: Yeah. One of my favorite things to say in a yoga class, excuse me, is drop your tongue from the top of your mouth. And then feel the jaw relax at the same time. And people don't realize.
[00:10:45] Jennifer Bartley: Not at all. There's like, again, there's this disconnect to how we're holding life in our body.
[00:10:52] Kathryn White: Yes.
[00:10:54] Jennifer Bartley: But it's true. Like, how are we holding our life?
[00:10:56] How are we feeling it in our physical body from day to day, right? And I think there, there is that disconnect. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:11:06] Kathryn White: I'm
[00:11:06] Jennifer Bartley: currently, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, it just leads to, you know,
[00:11:10] Kathryn White: the disease factor, right? I'm currently, um, recording videos for a membership that I host and, and that's one of the slides is literally about disconnect and connect.
[00:11:23] And every message for every lesson is about like, we have become so disconnected from ourselves in recognizing, you know, that gut pain is actually related to the food that we're eating and, and that gut pain isn't normal. And that tension in our neck and shoulders isn't normal. But we, I think are socialized to believe in this busy world of do, do, do that.
[00:11:43] Well, that's just normal. That's just how everybody feels. And so why am I any different? But when we connect back into ourselves and we observe, when we learn how to observe and say, Oh, my tongue is literally glued to the top of my mouth all of the time. And therefore my jaw hurts and, and, and
[00:12:01] Jennifer Bartley: yeah. And I think too, you know, I think it's funny sometimes as I'm massaging.
[00:12:07] I will hear the grumbles of tummies or they'll fall asleep, right? They apologize to me for those things and I'm like, no, that's great. Your tummy is growling. That's rest and digest, right? You've fallen asleep, right? Good. That means I'm relaxing your nervous system, right? So that I'm, I'm enacting all these good things.
[00:12:28] in your body, right? I'm reducing your stress level, right? That's one of the benefits of, of having massage therapy, right? And I think often that piece is maybe a little overlooked of what, you know, massage therapists can do for you, for your overall.
[00:12:47] Kathryn White: Yeah. Yeah. Cause a lot of people think it's about elbows in your back and stripping your hamstrings and you know, but I admittedly have fallen asleep on your table and which is a good
[00:12:58] Jennifer Bartley: thing.
[00:12:59] Yeah. I encourage that. I encourage quiet treatment. I encourage that because I want you to relax into my table. I want you to feel, you know, safe, right? So when you fall asleep, I know that you, you're feeling safe with me, right? Cause sleep, you're in a vulnerable, unconscious state.
[00:13:17] Kathryn White: You're.
[00:13:18] Jennifer Bartley: Right. And, and I, I just kind of smile when I hear the little snores and stuff.
[00:13:24] I just kind of brings a little smile to my face and I, and I know that you're relaxing into my treatment when I'm providing you, which is great. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:34] Kathryn White: So if we can bring this around to the conversation for around cancer, You know, you're talking about reducing stress, which is like one of my favorite things to talk about with clients and, that leads into the mindfulness of being aware of all those things, those little whispers in your body.
[00:13:51] So when, when my clients, first of all, I think there's not enough advocacy for this type of treatment post, even during cancer treatment. But post surgery, like I wish someone had told me that, you know, I've had six surgeries. And, and only on my last one did they say, at this point in your healing process, can you go for, for massage?
[00:14:12] It's not been part of the conversation, which is part of why I want to have you here today, is to advocate for these hands on healing, holistic treatments for people who, are stressed from a diagnosis for people whose bodies have been changed through surgeries and through treatments and so can you, you know, speak to that at all?
[00:14:33] Jennifer Bartley: Yeah, I can. I think, I think people need to know, right, that are going through cancer or even the caregivers need to know this is changing you. From the inside out, right? When we look at the treatments that are provided, whether it be chemo or radiation, you're changing the tissue, you're changing the cells, right?
[00:14:53] So, that has a lasting effect and, and sometimes you don't even feel those effects until years later, right? So, you might not feel it immediately, you might not feel what's happening in your body right away, but a little further down the road, you might have That kind of change that's happened in your body, that's when it's going to show up, right?
[00:15:15] So the tissue's changed, it can become a little bit more restricted, especially when we look at scar tissue, right? So scar tissue, there's like a whole healing process, right? We have our tissue, which is collagen fiber, right? And it lays down in like a basket weave. As soon as we disrupt that basket weave with like something like a surgery, whether that be like remove breast tissue or just like what you've faced with some of your treatment with surgery, it leaves that, that, uh, collagen virus specifically to like lie down differently, right?
[00:15:53] And then we see that buildup of, of tissue. We get the restrictions. Like for you, it was like, Oh, I can't move my arm. Right. I can't like, Lift. I don't have this free range of motion of just bringing my arm up by my head, right? And we've thought we've kind of brainstormed all sorts of things that it could be but you have found that kind of releasing some of that scar tissue or that fascia around that area has been helpful for you, right?
[00:16:19] So very much When tissue lays down different, right? It changes. It's changing the pattern and how it's lying down and then it's building That tissue up a little too, right? So sometimes you can get those thick scars, right? Erased. So massage therapy goes into that area. We go in there, we kind of disrupt it and try and smooth it out a little bit.
[00:16:46] We bring, we're bringing blood circulation to it, which is what is amazing to heal anything in your body really, right? It's bringing nutrients, all the good stuff, right? So we work to kind of break that pattern up and change it just a little so that it lays different again, so that it's less noticeable or less raised up.
[00:17:09] And then when we talk about fascial restriction, you know, if, let's say you have a scar that's like on your upper shoulder, right? And that, that, that little scar is healing, but it's bring, bringing the tissue in close around it, right? It's closed up, it's healing, got your scar tissue lying around it, it's also pulling the fascia that lies around that area, right, and then you're going to feel that kind of restriction in another area.
[00:17:38] So even if you're feeling, you know, some sort of tension somewhere else in the body. It's probably coming from the scar tissue that's been laid down, right? And often they don't, for any surgery, not just for cancer, they don't tell you to go get the scar tissue worked on,
[00:17:55] Kathryn White: right?
[00:17:56] Jennifer Bartley: There has to be a healing process.
[00:17:58] Like there's a whole healing process that happens with scar tissue. So there is a, like a waiting period before we can get in and do it, but we should be in there as soon as possible. Right, to break up that before it even really starts. So, it's more of a preventative measure, right, going in, breaking it up before we get to that phase of like, I can't lift my shoulder.
[00:18:20] Right, yeah. I need to take the scar tissue so that I can move my body. You know more freely.
[00:18:27] Kathryn White: Yeah, I find that really interesting. Because in my book, I have a chapter on scars and I talk about how we are often we just see them as surface and all of my they're very deep, but I, you know, until I took some anatomy and yoga teacher training and then.
[00:18:44] Going deeper into massage treatment, most of my surgeries, for the exception of one, have been on my right hand side. The colon surgery disrupted the space inside there and created, now I know, like scarring inside underneath that I can't see. And then the liver coming out and it's not holding up my ribs anymore.
[00:19:03] And so the whole side of my body leans in. And then the right lung surgery, like there's just been so much on the right hand side. Right. I wish that I had known and, and I can see the scars on the surface, but didn't really realize until we started talking about it, the impact that that has actually on the left side of my body.
[00:19:24] Jennifer Bartley: Right. Well, fascia specifically has something called tensegrity. Right? So if it's compressed on one side, then it's stretched on the other, right? So, with fascia, we try to work with bringing the tensegrity back to more of a balanced, right? So, and I think people, again, we go back to this concept of like, it has to be deep, it has to be hard, it has to be painful.
[00:19:50] Right. For me to make change when all of this stuff is actually starts at the surface and then we go deeper. Right. So, you know, it's been sometimes challenging to, to get people to, to kind of switch to this very new, like, this is new actually information, about fascia and how it's relating to the muscles In your body and what it's doing this tensegrity that I just talked about, and then the restrictions, the tightness, range of motion, like
[00:20:25] Kathryn White: it's all Can you back up for like just a second and, and really explain what fascia is?
[00:20:29] Cause I bet you there's a lot of people who have no idea. You and I are like, of course we're talking about fascia, but it's, you're right. It's such a new thing that people are like, I don't even know what that is. Like, so what is fascia? Where does it, how does it show up in your body and we're like, where is
[00:20:44] Jennifer Bartley: it in your body?
[00:20:45] It's everywhere. So fascia is a membranous continuum. Like it's just a membrane that's everywhere. So think your organs, your brain, your blood cells, your everything, your lymphatics, it's everywhere, right? And so it's composed of like sacks, bags, tubes, um, containers. Right? So it's wrapping your organs, it's wrapping your muscles, it's wrapping your muscle fibers.
[00:21:12] Like literally, it's everywhere, right? And we have learned that it's, it's right on the surface. So you've got your skin and then you've got. Your fascial layer. So if you think about like a chicken, for instance, that has, you've removed the skin and there's this white film on the chicken. Mm hmm. It's fascia.
[00:21:35] Okay. So it's thin. It's like a thin membrane, right? But it's, it's really, it's full of collagen, which I just told you is like a weave pattern, right? And it's just, it moves, it slides, it glides, but it gets stuck. So I like to unstuck. Or unstick the fascia. Yeah. I like it. It, it provides, so people often ask me what I feel, right.
[00:22:02] What I feel with my hands. Like how do I know that it hurts there? Right? Like I'll often say, I'll stop, right? And be like, oh, does that, is that tender there? Right? I've done it with you. Is that tender there?
[00:22:13] Kathryn White: Mm-hmm .
[00:22:14] Jennifer Bartley: Mm-hmm . I, right. It is . It's the texture, the density. Right. The viscosity of the tissue that I'm feeling.
[00:22:22] Right. And they all have different textures. To what is going on, whether it be like a dense kind of space where I'm like, oh, I gotta like stay here for a bit. Or if it's like dry, the blood's not there. Mm. If ity is not there, I need to get this fluid so that we have this sliding glide thing happening. So essentially without getting too into the physiology, it's a membrane and it surrounds.
[00:22:51] Everything, everything. We are so not taught that. No, and for the longest time in anatomy, it meant nothing. It was garbage. Yeah. What's this? But they've come to find out, uh, I've got my notes here, 250 million sensory receptors just in fascia alone. Oh, so that, yeah. Right? So when we talk about pressure and going deep, right, fascia actually likes it more.
[00:23:23] So it takes time, right? Like I got to leave my hand on you and my hand sinks down, right? Till we get to the fascia and then I'm feeling some stuff, right? And I'm feeling which way does this want to move, slide, glide, right? So people, when they think, oh, it's got to be deep, I'm often having to say, but I, I haven't gotten there
[00:23:44] Kathryn White: yet, right?
[00:23:45] Because
[00:23:45] Jennifer Bartley: I, I have to take my time. It likes it slow. It likes warmth, right? And it's, it's full of nerves. Right? But it has to be a, a slow, more delicate, I hate to say delicate because I'm not sure that's the right word, but slower, not as aggressive right away. Doesn't mean, by the way, that doesn't mean that if you're treating a fascial restriction or if you're treating the fascia that you're not going deep.
[00:24:19] The difference is, is that you have to go, you have to wait for the tissues to let you in. Mmm. That takes time. It's not like, okay, I'm in. Right. Great. Great. Just hammer down with an elbow, right? Because then we're also, I've come to learn in another thing that I've gone another down, another rabbit hole called neuro neural, modulation.
[00:24:41] We've got to, we, we ignore the skin too, which also has. That's your sensory organ, right? It's like the outside of your brain, right? That's the biggest organ in your body. So if I just come in and I start hammering away, right, with my elbow, I've ignored the skin and then I ignore the fascia. So I've just ignored two very important, you know, sensory organs.
[00:25:05] Right. You know, I think too, we often forget because if you look at it as a concept of it's like a wrapping everything. So if it's wrapping your muscle, wrapping your organs, wrapping all these things. When it gets tight and restricted, what is it doing? Right? So I often tell people, like, think about a loaf of bread.
[00:25:28] Right? This is, I've got such crazy analogies. Think about a loaf of bread, right? It works. Wrap it tight in saran wrap. What's happening to the bread if I wrap it too tight? So it's in the compression that we're feeling that uncomfortableness in the body, that restricted tissue, right? So it makes no sense to me to go target the muscle first, right?
[00:25:57] At first I want to target your skin, your nervous system, then I want to go down a little bit and then get to that fascial layer. See what's happening there. Once I've kind of loosened that up, then I can go down deeper into maybe the muscle tissues that are also being affected from that compression or that restriction that's happening.
[00:26:18] Kathryn White: And you can just do that in a specific area, so it doesn't have to be an overall.
[00:26:24] Jennifer Bartley: No, no, I, I think, you know, it's kind of a weird con, you know, got to go back to taking so I took a fascial course and in that class there was this big dude guy, right? Like, I, like, you just looked at him, you thought, yeah, he, he throw, I call it throwing elbows, he throws some elbows, like he does a deep tissue massage, right?
[00:26:47] For him to even get the concept of even how to assess it, right? Because it's, it's, if you feel like you're doing nothing, like you truly feel like you're doing nothing, right?
[00:26:56] Kathryn White: Cause as a receiver, I've been like, Hey,
[00:27:00] Jennifer Bartley: what you doing? But I'm feeling, where is this coming from? Is it local? Is it more down the line?
[00:27:09] Like down views, they call it like more coming from somewhere else, right? Because you can have a restriction in your shoulder. Right. But maybe it's not coming from the shoulder. Yeah. Maybe it's like lower down. Right. So you kind of have to release all of that. And then get to that area that you're kind of feeling that discomfort in.
[00:27:29] And I think that's, yeah, actually, you know, we talk about you falling asleep, which I, I love. But I do ask questions. So I do come to areas and I'll be like, Oh, like, do you feel that? Mm hmm. Sometimes you will. You'll feel what I'm feeling. Right. But sometimes. You know, you won't, but I'm sometimes I feel you
[00:27:51] Kathryn White: on
[00:27:51] Jennifer Bartley: my shoulder
[00:27:52] Kathryn White: and it's in my wrist, jumping up in my wrist,
[00:27:56] Jennifer Bartley: but it's all so connected and it's layer by layer by layer.
[00:28:00] Right. So, and I think this, you know, this disconnect from our bodies has really affected, uh, people's ability to know what's happening. Right. Um, and, and what's causing the pain and why it's there. Yeah. You know, after I treatment, I usually would say to somebody, like, kind of think about it for 24, 48 hours.
[00:28:27] How does my body feel? How am I moving? Am I better? Am I worse? Right? Yeah. Because it does kind of gear treatment. Yeah. Do I need to change something? Do I need to change a movement? Do I need to, like, not move? anything, right? Like it really, they used to say in school that it's like a puzzle that you have to put together and that, that's very true, right?
[00:28:48] Kathryn White: Yeah. Right. Our bodies are so smart and they're, they're so, also used to the patterns that we've given them. And so any change in a pattern, right. So to bring it back to, to the people that are listening to this podcast, like Like you talked about if breast tissue has been removed or if there's been a big open surgery, like things have been changed.
[00:29:09] And so, I often talk about like listening to the whispers of your body. Like when you have a little ache somewhere, okay, why, what does it feel like? What emotion is it bringing up? Because if it's bringing up like fear or something, you need to deal with that also. And then what can you do about it? And perhaps it's not something you can manage yourself.
[00:29:31] And so having tools in your toolbox, having someone that you can go to that can help you to assess that, but you have to be bringing it all the way back to that disconnect conversation. You have to be connected. And want to, and, and this is something else, you know, that when it comes to scarring and, and post surgery or post, treatment trauma, that first of all, the body holds onto that trauma, but also the, the psychology of disconnect from the body because of that feeling like my body has failed me, or I have failed my body or my, how do I love a body that has been changed when really there, there are.
[00:30:12] Yeah. People like yourself that are out there that can help to to rework and to bring back that awareness and create that self love and and intuitiveness of the body again.
[00:30:27] Jennifer Bartley: And it's kindness with my hands, right? Like I think that's the other part of it, right? Like I want to to move slowly with This, you know, not just cancer patients.
[00:30:39] That's, that's a part of it too, right? You got to move slowly. You got to move kindly. Right? The body's already been through enough, right? So how am I going to help this person, right? Kind of move through the changes in their tissue. How do I help that? How do I, you know, heal some of that trauma that's been stored within the body, right?
[00:31:07] And I think that it, that conversation, boundaries. You know, especially boundaries, like really listening to what's happening with the person on my table, like, how is this feeling? Where are you feeling it? Right?
[00:31:25] Kathryn White: All of
[00:31:26] Jennifer Bartley: these things, done very mindfully, right? Which brings us back to, you know, my yoga training, my mindfulness training in yoga, right?
[00:31:35] I think it's so important. For me as a massage therapist that my client on that table knows that they're always in control of their treatment, right? Like they don't like something they're uncomfortable with, something they're not ready for. Right. That those things are validated and listened to.
[00:31:55] Kathryn White: Yeah, but that would require the person to know how to use their voice, right?
[00:32:00] True. A whole other conversation. Right.
[00:32:02] Jennifer Bartley: But I do think, I like, I have that conversation when you walk into my office as a new patient where I, I kind of tell you that, right? Here's your permission to lie down on my table and let it go, right? Whether that be sleeping, right? You can talk to me, I will talk to you if you want to have a conversation, but this is going This?
[00:32:25] Will be led by you at all times, right? It's, you know, either whether we have a conversation will be led by you, whether you fall asleep on my table will be led by you, right? It's that, that piece of like control that needs to come back to the client, right? Oh, that's a whole other conversation. So important, especially when we look at the aspects of cancer, right?
[00:32:50] Kathryn White: Yeah.
[00:32:51] Jennifer Bartley: You know, my husband's gone through a journey as well, right? And there is this like, and I think that's. Again, I go back to everything happens for a reason. And in this case, like, I think that has helped me look at cancer differently in a way of like, you know, I, obviously I love you, right. And I know that you've been through a lot and all that stuff, but it's different when it's like so close.
[00:33:20] Yeah. And, and you don't, I, like, I, I saw you, right? I saw you, I heard you, all of those things, but it's different when you're walking into that cancer clinic. Yeah. It's a completely different ballgame. And then you're like, oh, wait, right? It's not the cancer. It's all the waiting, and all the stress that's building up in your body.
[00:33:46] Yes. It's not, it's the treatment, like we talked about the physiology part of like the treatment, changes your cells, changes you from the inside out, right? But just the aspect of like, The diagnosis, the imaging, right, all of the little pieces of the puzzle that the people don't see in the background that's happening, the stress building up in your body, even caregivers, right, I would say even from a caregiver aspect, it was never the cancer, or what we were going to do about it.
[00:34:21] It's this, this process. Waiting and waiting and hoping and praying and what's going to happen and your brain just, right? Yeah, yeah. All the tension building in the body, not just for the person that's been diagnosed, but the family members that are going along for the ride, whether they like it or not, right?
[00:34:44] Yeah, yeah. I think When somebody comes into my room and they talk about my mom has cancer or my mom died of cancer or my husband has cancer or I have cancer, you know, I have this conversation of like, almost that comes from experience. Right. And it's the empathy of like, how am I going to treat this person as an individual, knowing what they've gone through,
[00:35:14] Kathryn White: every
[00:35:15] Jennifer Bartley: cancer story is different, but ultimately it's the same too.
[00:35:20] Like it's the same process that you go through for this diagnostic, right. Yes. Very mechanical. As I found anyways, it's very mechanical, right. And you, you just find yourself like. Okay, what? Right? Like, it's, it's, it was interesting to see it from the inside, you know, and I think I look at, I think that experience also makes me look at other diagnoses differently as well, right?
[00:35:53] Because maybe it's not cancer, maybe it's ulcerative colitis. It has an impact on how a person feels in their own body, how their mental wellness is, etc. is progressing or not progressing, right? Because some people do what I did and be like, okay, like, how do we fix this? And some people are like, I'm just going to dig my head in the sand and this isn't happening at all to me.
[00:36:17] Absolutely. Yes. It's all going to be the medical field. That's going to fix me and put me back together. I don't have to do the work.
[00:36:24] Kathryn White: Yeah. Yeah. So there's,
[00:36:26] Jennifer Bartley: there are two different people that walk into my space and I have to figure out, who are you? Are you going to do some work or are you going to be like, I don't want to do anything.
[00:36:37] I don't even want to talk about this. I don't want to, this isn't happening.
[00:36:42] Kathryn White: And the misunderstanding out there that it is truly just a medical process. Like it really, like I really try to address that over and over and you know, all of the platforms that I'm working in because it's like, this is a medical thing happening in your body.
[00:36:57] First of all, you are not your cancer, you, a diagnosis of something happening in your body or whatever the illness is, but, but medicine has a part in it. And this is really such a big part of why I want to have you here today because of your, your professional story, but also your personal story to understand that there, there can be an integration and, and it is, it is a psychological sport.
[00:37:22] It is. Like, you know, they talk about sports psychology and, and visualization and, and, you know, runners at the, at the start line, like they're visualizing the entire race before they even do it. But we, well, some of us that are coaches, we do do that, but, but the, the regular person doesn't get necessarily that, okay, let's visualize it.
[00:37:42] Let's talk about it. Let's go through how Fascia Release is going to help you. How changing what you eat is gonna help you. How, literally visualizing one of the best experiences we had. weird going through the cancer process was watching videos before we even went to the cancer clinic for the first time.
[00:37:59] The LHSC in London had a video series that said, this is where you're going to park your car. This is the door you're going to walk through. This is what you're going to see when you walk through the door. You're going to go around that corner. Like visualization is so huge. It's such an important part of the process.
[00:38:14] And then. Addressing the medical stuff and no, it never, I had that conversation with you. I'm like, what the hell
[00:38:23] Jennifer Bartley: is happening here,
[00:38:25] Kathryn White: right?
[00:38:26] Jennifer Bartley: Yeah, it's overwhelming. It was, it was so overwhelming and people don't, understand until you walk into that building and it, listen, I must say they are amazing. The staff are amazing.
[00:38:38] They're, they are. Everybody's, you know, upbeat, talking to you, showing you around, you know, but in your brain, you're just like, what is happening here? How did I get here? How am I even here? I don't want to be here. I don't care where the Tim Hortons is. I don't want your pamphlets. I don't want to stay. I don't want to be here.
[00:38:58] Right? So there's this whole psychology that's happening in your brain where like, Oh, this is, this is welcoming, comfy, cozy. Oh, they're holding my hand. But wait, I don't want any of this. And your brain is in fight or flight. Yeah, you're running. You're like, I don't, I don't want to be here. Right. It's, it's such, and I, I remember having that conversation with you about like, Oh, there's once was a video.
[00:39:22] And I'm like, they need to put that video back up.
[00:39:24] Kathryn White: They do need to put that video back up. Cause it really. It, it didn't make it easier, but it made it a little bit easier to say like, okay, I know exactly what the process is going to look like. It didn't reduce the stress, you know, but at least it allowed us something.
[00:39:42] Jennifer Bartley: Yeah. I just feel like for me, it would have been like, this is what you're going to see, right? Don't be shocked by what you, and it's not like it was like a scary shock or anything, you know, there's people getting their treatment and you know, it's just. I think I was just kind of shocked by the whole presentation in general.
[00:40:01] So I was like, Oh, I don't, it's like my brain didn't know what to make of it. Yes. And then
[00:40:09] Kathryn White: that's the ripple effect through the body. And then that's,
[00:40:13] Jennifer Bartley: you know, the tension, right? Of like, Oh, this is weird. Right? Yeah. I just feel like. Yeah, like I, that whole experience gave me a whole new appreciation of like how I view just anybody that's walking through life because we're all walking through different various challenges, right?
[00:40:34] Cancer just happens to be really stress inducing, right? So for cancer, or, or the person that's going through it. And I think you, like, like I just told you, there's two, two schools of people. And maybe some in between, right? Some that want to learn and want to do the work, right? And they're in it. Then you've got the halfway point where like, well, maybe I'll do some work, but I'm not sure what I'm doing.
[00:41:03] I don't, this is not, it's overwhelming, right? I'm just overwhelmed. Yes. And then there's like the other half that is like, again, buried my head in the sand. This isn't happening. This isn't doing anything to me, right? But it is, right? So cool. No matter if you're looking at caregiver or person that's, you know, going through it has the diagnosis of something like cancer, ulcerative colitis, any disease really, how are they processing that and then what is it doing internally?
[00:41:36] How are they holding that trauma in their cells, right? Because it's changing them from the inside out. It's changing their fetish. It's changing how they're holding their body, right? It's, it's It's so interconnected, the body, and the brain, and the gut, like it's so, it's just. Yeah, it's like so cool.
[00:42:02] Kathryn White: I think that's a really powerful message that you know that having the self awareness and and asking for help is a superpower.
[00:42:11] I'm going to offer to that for the listeners. If your hospital or your medical team asks you for feedback. I'm telling you that visualization video is game changing. Ask them to make a video, ask them to have that available on your patient platform for you to watch so that you can at least mentally prepare yourself.
[00:42:31] Because as Jennifer said, like everything is cumulative. It starts to accumulate in your body. And if you can, can take control, cause cancer takes a lot of control away, but there are things you can, if you can control little pieces like that, then going through the process. You may not end up like this tight ball of fiber.
[00:42:49] You may be able to sort of find some release introspection. And, and I appreciate also that you brought up the caregiver because. The caregivers really are the unsung heroes and they walk the walk with the patient and so it's important that they also Get care and and take care of their bodies because they're doing they're not doing the surgery treatment stuff But they're doing the keeping the kids going getting to work getting the groceries doing all the other things that just the day to day And that takes a toll on them also, I know that there are people who listen to the podcast that are caregivers and so I, I think it's important that the message be for, for them as well.
[00:43:31] Jennifer Bartley: Yeah. And I think, you know, we talked about the, you know, the scar tissue is one aspect of it that I do think surgeons in general, whether it be for cancer surgery or for just taking care of scar tissue should be saying, go get this treatment done. Yes. Go get this massage therapy treatment that will help, you know, lay those tissues.
[00:43:57] Better in a better pattern so that you don't end up like again, it's kind of stopping What could lead to restrictions in the body before it even starts, right? So and but then if we look at from the cancer aspect I think that's to something that should be mentioned by the oncologist How about, how about going to seek massage out to calm your nervous system?
[00:44:24] This is a high stress thing that's just happened. And, you know, we've talked about Paul's cancer quite a bit. You know, my husband had lymphatic cancer, non Hodgkin's, lymphoma, follicular, right? So not, Not a cancer that you're gonna, you know, really, have like a lifespan shortage on, right? Like, it's very treatable
[00:44:51] but it's still cancer.
[00:44:54] Kathryn White: Yeah, and that's why I talk, you know, with my clients, like, the prognosis can throw you off to begin with, but every cancer story is different, every cancer is different, even people with the same diagnosis go through that cancer differently, and so it's There, there are varying degrees of, the cancer.
[00:45:17] I don't want to, to make it sound, you know, lighthearted, but, but the truth is, is that, like you said, as soon as that word is dropped on the table, everything changes and it doesn't matter what is happening. It doesn't matter. There's no comparing. Maybe that's the message. It doesn't, it's not about comparing, you know, the, the, That the,, intensity of the diagnosis, it's the fact that it's the caring for the person
[00:45:47] Jennifer Bartley: and it just causes uncertainty of what is this going to look now in the moment.
[00:45:54] Yes, and and further down the line, right? So it's like, you know, it's just an interesting kind of Concept of like, how do we help people that are going through these big diagnoses, right? Yeah, how do we help their nervous system regulate, right? And I think what I like to offer people is my kind hands, right?
[00:46:23] Like I tell people, you know, this is, this is how I treat. This is how I choose to treat. I like to work with fascia. I like, you know, I, I do go deep. However, I take my time, I do it very slow, you felt it, it's very slow, it's very quiet, you know, but it's also very mindful and very nurturing to be mindful of who do I have on my table today?
[00:46:51] Yeah. Who am I working with today and what do they need from my hands and where do I need to be? Right. Yeah. You know, I, I tried to teach people that it doesn't always have to cause you pain to be making a difference. Right. Yeah. I think if anything that, you know, that can be taken away is that there's that disconnect from the body of like, I've got to feel this pain or something when I'm actually seeking relief when I'm actually looking for something else, right, where I'm actually looking for these restrictions to be.
[00:47:26] You know, removed from my body, right? Yeah. And it doesn't happen in one session. Sometimes, you know, if I'm working on something, like we've done several sessions for you and your shoulder, uh, it doesn't happen overnight, right? Mm-hmm . It takes, takes time. It takes time for those fibers to lay in that area.
[00:47:45] It's gonna take time to remove them or make them lay in a different way, right? Yeah. And sometimes it takes other healthcare providers like chiropractors, osteopath coming in to help me. That's the holistic wraparound. That's right. It's like a circle, but the whole circle of care, right. And I don't, I really feel massage therapists.
[00:48:13] Are sometimes overlooked for that circle of care and I, and I'm not understanding quite why, um, because we're very valid, right? Like we're very found the work we do, um, and, and often in the approach we have, right? There's a lot of like to treat. the same way, right? Like I, you know, just yesterday I had someone say, Oh, I, I'd like massage therapy, but they do so it's too much.
[00:48:40] Like I just like it light, but I've gone to several and they don't do that. Right.
[00:48:47] Kathryn White: We'd have to find your person. Don't you?
[00:48:49] Jennifer Bartley: I'm not going to be for everyone. Like I'm not everybody's cup of tea and that's fine. Like you're either. You're going to find benefit from it or you're not right and I don't want you with me if you haven't found benefit for me.
[00:49:01] I would rather you find somebody else that is more suited for. How you feel your body is responding.
[00:49:07] Kathryn White: Yeah. That leads me to the question of, someone who has cancer and is looking for a massage therapist, do they might think that they need to find a massage therapist who is specifically trained in massage for cancer?
[00:49:26] Jennifer Bartley: I mean, I don't think so. I think we, I think we all. Yeah, to our extra education, if you will, right? So me and I've done extra education in fascial. You heard me talk about this, uh, DNM, which is dermal neural modulation, which is working with your cutaneous nerves. Specifically, I plan to do cranial sacral therapy coming up.
[00:49:52] You know, I, Okay. I think it doesn't have to be specific, but they do need to know a little bit extra, right? You know, when we go through through massage therapy school, we get a broad kind of experience. Yeah. learning of everything, right? Of fascia, of muscles, of bones, joints, ligaments, tendons, all of that.
[00:50:19] We get a broad spectrum of, like, conditions. So we all learn how to treat people with cancer.
[00:50:25] Kathryn White: However,
[00:50:26] Jennifer Bartley: I do think it's always a good idea to have somebody that maybe understands A little bit more in depth about what it's doing to your tissues. How does chemotherapy, um, hold into your body? How is it changing your cells?
[00:50:47] How is it changing your tissues? Is it short term? Is it long term? Are you 10 years out of, like, cancer and you're, you're done? You've been in remission for a number of years, but how is, you know what I mean? I think it's important that the person that's treating you understand Some of the deeper aspects of cancer.
[00:51:10] Kathryn White: Yeah, and I think that's where the patient needs to advocate for themself and say like, and I know there's always a form, like, this is who I am, this is what I've had. When they ask me to list, have you had any surgeries? I'm like, oh, here we go. List them all so that the, the practitioner, the massage therapist can understand.
[00:51:27] I do have one question and I don't know if you know the answer to this or not, but there is, Um, specialized massage therapy for lymphatic drain. Like a lot of breast cancer patients have lymphedemia. They run into issues with the drainage.
[00:51:40] Jennifer Bartley: It's hard to find someone with, I know there's a lady in London that has Pacific specific training for lymphatic drainage.
[00:51:49] I would tell you, we all work with your lymphatic system. So I think really it's a conversation. With the massage therapist that you're working with, um, about their knowledge around cancer, about their knowledge around the lymphatics draining. Mm
[00:52:06] Kathryn White: hmm.
[00:52:07] Jennifer Bartley: You know, I personally, as a massage therapist, would likely refer out for lymphatic stuff.
[00:52:14] Um, it also, by the way, is a very delicate treatment.
[00:52:19] Kathryn White: Mm
[00:52:20] Jennifer Bartley: hmm. It's It's very superficial. It's not deep deep. Often. I don't know why, but people think it's like it has to be a deep. Yeah. Yeah. But there is people that they take in that extra certification. for lymphatic drainage specifically, and I would likely refer out for that.
[00:52:40] Kathryn White: And that's fair. You know, I respect that because there are people who are going to want a very particular person. And again, I would hope, and I know you've done it for me, is when I've said, you know, this is what I'm experiencing, you've said, well, I'm going to need to do some research on that. And that, that the therapist themselves is willing to do a little bit of looking into things.
[00:52:58] Jennifer Bartley: And I would tell you, like, lymphatic stuff. Although I learned it obviously in school, it's not something that I've taken a deep dive on, right? I've gone more towards fascia, uh, scar tissue, like cranial sacral therapy, and the DN stuff is where I kind of have found my interest. That's not to say that lymphatics Isn't super interesting because it is I just haven't gotten to that kind of, yeah, stage where I'm ready to, to kind of look into that there's a lot.
[00:53:32] Yeah, often certification is quite expensive as well. So, it's a, it's a big training. So there is somebody in London that does it. Yeah, and I think it depends on what kind of lymphatic drain drainage. I think that's.
[00:53:49] Kathryn White: How I will answer that question. Yeah, so people can ask questions, look and see and really just make, have conversations with their therapist to see if they're the best fit.
[00:54:00] Jennifer Bartley: And I'm going to go back to people just don't know, right? People don't know that them having cancer 10 years ago matters to me. And they often are kind of, you know, why does that matter, right? Why does that matter? That was 10 years ago. I'm in remission. I've been in remission for 10 years. Well, because you've had these, you know, depending on what type of treatment you have, I want to know, you know, What it's doing, what it's done over in your body.
[00:54:30] And I think, I think that's kind of missing too, right? Is this knowledge of like, it's changing us from the inside out or whether we have radiation and, and then how is that cancer treatment, how has it been delivered? Is it a pill? Is it a pump? Is it like, did you just, my husband had 12 radiation sessions just on.
[00:54:52] The side of his head. Yeah, but the tissues then been changed in that area, right? And I think that's You know, probably something that I've gotten really interested into is like, how is this changing, right? How has this pathologically been changed in the body and why, right? I love why's.
[00:55:17] Kathryn White: So we could talk about this forever.
[00:55:19] This is just so many. It's like the fascia. There's just so many layers to this of the care. So. I think what I'm hearing you say is that, people should speak to their health care team about massage as a possibility and advocate for themselves in getting that treatment if it's available to them. I know that for some people financially it might not be available to them, so seek in your community are there resources available to support getting massage therapy.
[00:55:49] You know, can you go to, to a place where they offer it at a discount or even for free for people with cancer because it is so imperative in the body. Build a relationship with your massage therapist so that you have the comfort to fall asleep on the table, to ask questions. But I think that is what's missing in the
[00:56:08] Jennifer Bartley: healthcare field too.
[00:56:10] Not just with doctors, right? Don't be afraid to ask me. A question. Why are you doing what you're doing? Why are you asking me that question? Why is that applicable? Right? And I think, you know, and they teach us in massage therapy school and, and it's very, uh, prominent with the CPT, the MTO, right? Your client has to know that they're in charge of their healthcare.
[00:56:39] Yes. They have the right to ask questions and as many questions as they feel that needs to be asked, right? And I think you should know who's providing you your treatment. What do, how do they know what they know? Uh, what are, like, what are their interests when it comes to, are they a sports massage therapist, right?
[00:57:04] Because if you're, like, having a sports injury, like, I don't really treat, I treat it, I can treat it, but it's not, like, my favorite, you'll have to be involved with, right? So if you're coming to see me and you have some sort of sport injury, I'm probably going to refer you somewhere else, right? Because that's not what I personally love to do.
[00:57:26] It's really about finding alignment. It's finding, like, who is the right person for this job, who is the right practitioner, does this person align with my values, uh, are they listening to me, are they hearing what I'm saying, are they, are they asking me questions, more questions about my health? It's not about just coming into my office, plopping on my table face down, let's get started, right?
[00:57:54] There's some conversation that needs to happen in order, I feel. In order to, for me to give you the best treatment that I can give you, right? Like I want to know how the last treatment was. I want to, I want to know a lot of, uh, different things that, that come into play and have an impact on the treatment that I'm giving you.
[00:58:19] And I think, You have to advocate for yourself.
[00:58:22] Kathryn White: You have
[00:58:24] Jennifer Bartley: to own it, right? Yes.
[00:58:27] Kathryn White: And that's your care, right? And that's, that's part of the care. This is a level of care that is very personal and intimate in its own way. And so, it's finding a practitioner that, that works. With you and for you and and I always say like again, you know, people feel like they lose so much control with a cancer diagnosis but there are many things that you can control and And finding the right person and and taking control of the practice is one of those things for sure Yeah, I agree.
[00:59:00] Oh my goodness. We've had like such a huge conversation. I love this so much. I love, I love being able to bring in a variety of people that can share so that that this community of people listening to the podcast can grow and, and learn. personally. And, and, I know that they will have some takeaways from this whole conversation that again, we could talk for hours and hours about all these things because we're on the same level of passion about, about these types of things because we care about people.
[00:59:28] And ultimately it, it is a human experience. And, and other humans supporting that experience is, it's part of it. So I have one more question for you before we wrap up our, our time together. And what is the question is, what does living to thrive mean to you?
[00:59:48] Jennifer Bartley: I'm going to go with balance, right? Like I feel like finding balance in life, right?
[00:59:55] Finding the balance of. what is too much fitness? What is enough fitness? What is enough good food in my diet, right? Because I think, you know, even as a wellness coach at The St. Thomas Hospital, I'm often saying to people, don't strive for perfection, right? Strive for getting it right most of the time, right?
[01:00:18] In there lies the balance, right? So I think learning to thrive, learning to find a balance of like, you know, this is okay. This feels balanced, even though it wasn't like. Perfect. Yes. Perfect. Yes. There's still this balance, right? I'm still in balance, right? So I feel like that that's learning to thrive or living to thrive for me, right?
[01:00:48] balance in all things.
[01:00:50] Kathryn White: Beautiful. I love that. Because it really is, it's a balancing act and it's about finding balance and it's about really like being able to breathe into it, be mindful. There's so many aspects to it and the balance can come from having a good support team, getting the help that you need, learning how to breathe, all of these, all of the good things.
[01:01:13] All of the good things. All of the good things. You are one of the good things, Jennifer. One of the beautiful things in my life. So thank you very much. I know you are local to St. Thomas, Ontario, Canada. So there, there are people that listen to the podcasts that are from our area. So, um, maybe you would like to tell them where they can find you or other massage therapists that you would recommend?
[01:01:35] Jennifer Bartley: Well, I work out of Simply Massage. And I work with five other beautiful massage therapists that are amazing, and we do yoga at our studio as well. So they can find, my co workers and anything yoga at Simply Massage.
[01:01:53] Kathryn White: Okay, and I will put that in the show notes for the people that are in the area, so.
[01:01:58] Oh my goodness, well Jennifer, a big thank you to you for being here today, and for sharing your wisdom and your insights on how hands on healing through massage can make such a huge difference in a person's life. , I just want to again, like, thank you from the bottom of my heart for being one of my people in my life that is supporting me, and for sharing everything that you've brought to the conversation today.
[01:02:22] So
[01:02:24] Jennifer Bartley: much for having me. It's been a pleasure.
[01:02:26] Kathryn White: Wonderful. Wonderful. And I will, I will see you around. I know that I will. So again, a big thanks to Jennifer for being here. And just before we end this episode, I just want to share with you listeners that I have created a new one to one coaching program called Thrive, and it's a 12 week personalized coaching program.
[01:02:46] with support through video lessons, PDFs for you to print, audios of meditations and 12 one to one online coaching sessions with me. So wherever you are living in the world, we can still connect. I'm currently looking for three individuals who are committed to learning, growing, making changes and supporting their body, mind, and spirit.
[01:03:07] This program is also open to caregivers. As we discussed with Jennifer, the impact that this has on the caregivers and how important it is for them to get. support. So if you are a caregiver, you are welcome to come to the program as well. So you can just go ahead and head to the show notes. There's a link in there to book a free 30 minute call with me to talk about the thrive coaching program and whether that is a good fit for you or not.
[01:03:30] Also just, I dropped it a couple of times in our, in our podcast, but my book living to thrive, a holistic guide to living with cancer is available. for you to purchase and to enjoy and, I think by the time this podcast airs, the audible version of it will be available to those of you that enjoy audible books and you can find that on Amazon or on my website and again, I'll link that in the show notes and friends, if you have enjoyed this episode or any other episodes that you've listened to, I would really appreciate it if you would leave a five star review wherever you are listening Listening.
[01:04:04] Your reviews help to make the podcast more visible to other people who are looking for support and who need support, and so if you could just go ahead and do that to spread the news that there is a way to live with cancer and that you can thrive with cancer. Thank you for joining me and for joining our guest, Jennifer, on this episode of The Living to Thrive with Cancer Podcast.
[01:04:29] Thank you so much for being here today. I hope you have a beautiful rest of your day. And may you live your life to your fullest, follow your heart, and thrive in all you
[01:04:38] do.
