Episode 4.16 Getting Real About Mental Health with Guest Bobby Koven
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[00:00:00] Kathryn White: Welcome to The Living to Thrive With Cancer Podcast. A podcast about the big and little issues that come with living with cancer. I'm Kathryn White, a stage four colon cancer. Thriver passionate about supporting others who have faced a cancer diagnosis and are looking to feel empowered in taking back control of their health and happiness.
[00:00:19] My own walk with Cancer helped me to learn more about myself and how to live with cancer, and it led me to become a holistic cancer coach so I can support others to move from survivor. To thrive, so let's get started.
[00:00:35] Hello friends, and welcome to episode 4.16 of the Living to Thrive With Cancer Podcast. I'm Katherine White, a certified holistic cancer coach, a published author and the host of the Living to Thrive with Cancer podcast. Before we dive into the episode, if you are a new listener, I want to welcome you to the podcast as a cancer thriver.
[00:00:55] I use my stories and experience with stage four colon cancer to guide you through your walk with cancer. As a holistic cancer coach, I want to help support you through creating a health building lifestyle. Managing your stress and helping you to navigate the day in and day out stuff that comes up when you have cancer.
[00:01:12] If you find what you've learned here today to be helpful, please share it with other people you know that could benefit from this episode. Sharing helps me to support more people living with cancer and to help them move from survivor to thriver. And go ahead and subscribe to the podcast. Wherever you are listening, follow it on YouTube.
[00:01:29] And I would love for you to head to the show notes and get your name on my weekly email list so you can follow my path to thriving with Cancer and how I'm using what I've learned to support you in your walk with cancer towards your goal of becoming a Thriver two. And when you sign up, you'll get a free download gift from me to you.
[00:01:46] In today's episode, I am talking with Bob Koven . Bobby Koven is a seasoned entrepreneur, but he has a secret. He's crazy with a k. Bobby has turned crazy into an asset. He has become an endearing advocate for mental health awareness. Crazy also, wild man. Sunset fly fishing Baker Bob. Using his unique brand of humor, Bobby reaches out to diverse audiences with a message of hope for those individuals and families afflicted with mental health issues.
[00:02:19] Dispelling the myths, smashing the misconceptions, and challenging the prejudices surrounding mental health. Bobby delivers a hard hitting message. There is no magic bullet. Just hard work and lots of practice and patience, and he ought to know. Diagnosed in his early twenties with Tourette's Syndrome. He now looks back on his past behavior with a new perspective drawing on his life experience.
[00:02:43] For his jokes and stories, Bobby tries his best to erase the stigmas surrounding mental health issues. He has released the documentary No Magic Bullet, which is a success story that exposes some of his realities of dealing with mental health. Bobby is also the host of a monthly podcast, what's In Your Toolbox?
[00:03:00] And today we're going to take a look at Bob's personal mental health story, his podcast, no Magic Bullet, what's in your toolbox and how it relates to you, the person living with cancer, and how he uses humor in his life. Welcome, Bob. That is a huge introduction.
[00:03:17] Bobby Koven: Well, listen, you know what? I think it's pretty good considering I wrote it.
[00:03:23] Kathryn White: I think that you did a great job.
[00:03:25] Bobby Koven: Thanks so much.
[00:03:27] Kathryn White: I'm so glad that you're here today. You and I have had the opportunity to connect. In the past, I've been on your podcast, we have a mutual friend and we like helping people. So having you here today, um, is really, I think, just a gift to the listeners to meet someone who doesn't have cancer per se, but has a dis-ease that has been part of their life.
[00:03:51] So maybe you can tell us a little bit more about that and how your health story, your mental health story, has impacted your life.
[00:04:00] Bobby Koven: Well, I'm gonna be 70 years old, so I've had lots of experience in having mental health affect my life because I've probably had it since I was born. Uh. But I never figured it out till I was 22 because I was out in Edmonton selling condominiums, and I got bit by a spider and, uh, came home.
[00:04:24] And at that time, if you can do the math, 20 from 70, the, the, the diagnosis of encephalitis, uh, was not. As sophisticated as was today. So they kept me in the hospital for about three weeks. Uh, and they had a psychiatrist come and see me because before they did the spinal tap, they wanted to make sure that, uh, I didn't have a brain tumor.
[00:04:47] And one thing led to the other and the psychiatrist asked me a couple of questions, uh, anything bother you in life? I said, yeah, I twitch. He goes, oh, does anybody else in your family twitch? I said, yeah, my grandmother twitches. He said, you, you. Speeding tickets. I said, yeah. He says, do you have bad behavior?
[00:05:08] I said, yeah. He says, I think you have Tourettes. And from that point on, the mystery was solved. I had Tourettes. Uh, but at that time, Tourette's is an orphan disease and there's really not, uh, much, uh, that you can do for it. They just started the Tourette's clinic at the Toronto Western under a guy named Dr.
[00:05:29] Malky, and he actually had two specialties, sleep therapy and Tourette. So he was so boring, he'd put me to sleep and therefore I wouldn't have to twitch. But, uh, you know, I knew I had Tourettes, uh, and I knew that it was an energy, uh. Disease in that it created tremendous kinetic energy in your brain. And I just managed to, uh, use that energy to my positive, to positively, you know, I, I had a two children.
[00:06:04] I had a business. I traveled all over the world. And, uh, so it became an asset rather than a liability till I was in my fifties. And then. I crashed, and from that point on, I have had this mental health journey because Kathryn , I'll tell you, positive energy is great, but I. It multiplies when it becomes negative energy.
[00:06:30] And today, I think all the children that have ADHD and are hyperactive and are diagnosed with, uh, who knows what, really it's just an energy issue and it's affecting them negatively. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that's my mental health journey and here we are today and, um, I'm glad to be on your podcast so I can talk a little bit about.
[00:06:57] How I manage it.
[00:06:59] Kathryn White: Thank you. Thanks for sharing that. I like what you said about the, um, the positive energy. So I'm a big advocate of positivity. Obviously the people that I work with, we wanna maintain some positivity and belief that things are going to be okay. But I'm also a big advocate of acknowledging the, the opposite of that, of, of acknowledging when things aren't okay, when things don't feel good, when things are.
[00:07:24] Uncomfortable and moving that energy as well in order to get back to that place of like homeostasis of like centered in your body. How does that resonate with you?
[00:07:35] Bobby Koven: Well, it absolutely resonates with me because, you know, when I was, uh, I couldn't get outta bed for seven years. I had terrible depression and I got involved with Sky Twist and then I got involved with, uh.
[00:07:53] Uh, the mindfulness, uh, center, uh, for. The Center for Mindfulness Studies and I started doing mindfulness, and you can see it in my documentary. I hated mindfulness. It was, it took seven years to be my friend, but I didn't have a choice because the psychiatrist said, look, you gotta do this thing. See, lots of people have choices, especially in situations where they get cancer, you know?
[00:08:20] You know, you've gotta practice mindfulness. Well, it's not easy.
[00:08:24] Kathryn White: Mm-hmm. It's
[00:08:24] Bobby Koven: very hard and, uh. After seven years, it became my friend. And so I've been doing it for about 13 years. But the reason that I'm talking about that is, is that I recently have, uh, elevated my mindfulness practice and I do a Joe Dispenza kind of meditation where I manage the energy centers in my body.
[00:08:47] I'm becoming quite good at it. It's quite fascinating and what's interesting about it is, is that I used to sleep in the afternoon, uh, because I thought that was good to get, you know, to have a, an afternoon siesta. But now that I have managed, uh, my energy centers, I don't have to sleep anymore in the afternoon.
[00:09:07] Matter of fact, I have a hard time getting to sleep 'cause my body is so energized and it's not from. Drugs, it's from mindfulness. So, you know, I find it fascinating the whole concept of energy and if people can learn and figure it out, uh, it definitely can help them solve any issues or most issues that they have.
[00:09:33] Kathryn White: Yeah, I, I think, you know, mindfulness is often overlooked in, in the medical system. Um, you know, we, I talk about it with my clients as a holistic tool, but things like getting grounded. Um, I know you are a fly fisherman and so I'm, I'm guessing, correct me if I'm wrong, that being out fishing is part of your mindfulness practice being in the water and in that quiet perhaps alone.
[00:09:59] Um. I know you're a baker. I expect that that's part of your mindfulness practice also is being engaged in making delicious desserts. You can find the pictures of them on Bob's weekly, uh, email or it's, yeah, it's a weekly email, right? If you sign up for it, you can see the amazing desserts that he bakes and your passion for sunset.
[00:10:19] Like, these are all such great tools to have in the toolbox that we're gonna talk about in a few moments. Are there other things that you recommend or that you like to use for mindfulness other than Dr. Joe Dispenza's meditations, um, and, and aligning your E Energy centers?
[00:10:39] Bobby Koven: Well, anything that can turn hours into minutes is a tool.
[00:10:46] So you talk about. Fly fishing, baking, gardening, taking sunsets. These are all non-traditional kind of tools that most people don't have access to. But you know, I do mindful walking. I have a, I. Managed force behind me and I walk in the force, but you know, if you live in Toronto, one of, uh, my, uh, guests on one of my episodes just walked along Lake Ontario.
[00:11:17] Mm-hmm. So walking is walking. It's really what you, what you make of it. So, you know, I've been fortunate enough to move up to the country. I was working in China. Beijing and every morning I woke up. It was like daggers in my eyes. I hated it. The most comforting sign was the Big H where the hospital was.
[00:11:40] 'cause I was sure I was gonna get some kind of disease, but I was making a good living. I was in the, uh, wireless business. I was like the king of pagers, which came well before cellular telephones. And that sort of tells you what my age is, but. I quit and I tried to run my anxieties and I moved up to Beaver Valley, which was my Shangri Laws, where I'd been since I was 12 years old.
[00:12:11] And it was, you know, in, I'm ensconced in nature, but the anxieties followed me. So you can't outrun your anxieties, but I've managed to. Find my trial and error to live somewhere where I can practice things that all of a sudden become tools. The sunsets was something I just did. Uh, I gave them to people that were in hospital rooms getting chemo or you know, whatever.
[00:12:40] Which I think is probably relevant to this conversation. Mm-hmm. So that they could look at a nice thought, or I gave it to people that could not fall asleep at night because you know, you gotta look at nice things and before you know it, it became a tool for me. And I'm Sunset Bob on Instagram, and I have all kinds of followers because Who doesn't love a sunset?
[00:13:06] Kathryn White: Yeah, your pictures are amazing, by the way, to the listeners. His pictures are amazing.
[00:13:11] Bobby Koven: Well, they're amazing because they're amazing because it's so simple, you know? This isn't a complicated process, you know? Mm-hmm. It's a sunset. Who doesn't love the sunset? Mm-hmm. Baking. I do baking because once again. It turns hours into minutes because you gotta prep for it, and at the end of it, everybody goes.
[00:13:34] Ooh, ah, isn't this fantastic? Who doesn't love a freshly baked, uh, blueberry pie? But I started baking because, you know, my mother baked, that was one of her passions. So that's the way I stay close to my mother. So everything fly fishing. My father was a fly fisherman. I go to New Brunswick every year, fly fishing on, uh, sojourn, uh, 'cause my dad and I did it for 30 years, so everything has.
[00:14:02] Uh, a beginning and I have just taken it. The interesting thing about fly fishing is, you know, one of the things that I can't handle are elevators, traffic, uh, tunnels. I got stuck in the Lincoln Tunnel in New York a number of times, but I can go out and stand in a river for three hours. Uh, and, you know, it's, is it dangerous?
[00:14:27] No. Is it mindful? Yes. Mm-hmm. And it's just beautiful. So these things have all become tools for me.
[00:14:37] Kathryn White: I, I think the, like the running theme through it is that they're all things that you are, I. Connected to on a certain level, whether it's a familial connection or an emotional connection or a connection to help other people, and that they're all just very calming practices, like the, the complete opposite of, um, I know that that.
[00:15:01] Living in, in Toronto. Toronto makes you a little bit crazy because of all of the, the concrete and the lack of trees in certain places and being stuck in a tunnel, in an elevator, confined spaces. Those are the opposite Of all of these freedoms that you described that are part of your mental health practices.
[00:15:19] Bobby Koven: But you have to be able to figure it out. Like, you know, you can't call up somebody and say, okay, what should I do? You know, I, I hate elevators, I hate, uh, airplanes. I, I, you know, I'm claustrophobic. And someone says, well, well, why don't you start fly fishing? I mean, they just don't say that. But you know what's interesting, Catherine, is you and I have something in common when we both ran marathons.
[00:15:42] Kathryn White: Yes. We have both run marathons.
[00:15:45] Bobby Koven: I ran marathons because. I had just had my first child and I was really nervous, so I had to get out of the house. So I first started 20 minutes, then 30 minutes, and before, you know what, I was running an hour and a half. Mm-hmm. I ran the New York marathon because it was a way of expending my energy.
[00:16:05] Kathryn White: Mm.
[00:16:06] Bobby Koven: You know? So, you know, at the end of running four and a half hours, I felt totally relaxed. Now, that's a lot of. Running. Mm-hmm. In order to get down to the normal energy level that somebody else has.
[00:16:22] Kathryn White: Yeah, but it's good. It's, I find, I used to find, I haven't done it. I'm actually signing up for the push for your tush, um, colon cancer awareness run in June.
[00:16:32] I've just committed to that publicly. Um, but I, I would find running meditative. I would put in, you know, my earbuds and, and the playlist that I felt motivated me on that given day. Get out of the house, get into nature. We live. In Elgin County, Southwestern Ontario. So there's a a lot of flat, which was nice for training, but just, you know, farmers fields and animals and trees and just being away from all the busy.
[00:16:59] So the chaos of a marathon is also very exciting and. But it can be a very meditative process running. Some people like to walk, some people like to do yoga, but I think what you said is true. Like you, you can't say to someone necessarily, well just go fly fishing and that, that will help you. The person has to go inside of themself and figure out what it is that they need and what they want.
[00:17:22] Bobby Koven: That's what they have to customize their own. They have to figure it out. They also have to figure out their triggers. Mm. Because everybody else has triggers. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, is this sage advice? No, I think this is just lots of practice. I mean, I know what all my triggers are, so I just try to stay away from them.
[00:17:45] And, uh, people that have mental health, people, I guess that I haven't got cancer, but people that have cancer, you know, there's certain things that trigger them. Like going to a hospital and having to have a scan. Absolutely. That's a trigger. Yeah. So you gotta figure out a tool that's gonna help you manage it.
[00:18:05] Look it, I had to have an MRI yesterday, 'cause I have a torn rec cater cuff. Oh. I just showed up and then they said, oh, by the way, you know you're gonna be in this tube for 15 minutes and there's gonna be loud noises, blah, blah, blah. Have you taken any sedatives? I go. Well, nobody told me I had to. Mm-hmm.
[00:18:25] So I managed through my toolbox to shut my eyes and just meditate. And before you know it, 15 minutes was over. So I.
[00:18:40] Kathryn White: There's an
[00:18:40] Bobby Koven: example right there. Yeah.
[00:18:42] Kathryn White: I had a CT scan, um, last, well, when this airs it will have been a month and a half, but, um, as we're speaking, it was, it was last week and my practice going into a CT scan, I.
[00:18:54] Is first of all to wear all of the clothes so that I don't have to change. So then I'm not, I'm not elevated triggered by wearing a gown. Um, and then when I get into the machine just repeating, I am happy, I'm healthy. Like that is my mantra as I go through it and it is done faster. It feels like then before when that wasn't a mindfulness practice for me to get through that.
[00:19:17] Bobby Koven: Right. So listen, I'm the guest. You're the host.
[00:19:21] Kathryn White: Yeah.
[00:19:22] Bobby Koven: So I gotta be careful not to become the host in conversation. But you know, there's, if there's one listener out there that's having a challenge with their scans, if they work on a tool and they have a trigger, maybe. It's gonna be a little bit easier.
[00:19:40] Yes. And each time it's gonna, it's gonna be a little bit easier, so Yes. Yeah. That's the deal. Yeah. What's in your toolbox.
[00:19:47] Kathryn White: Exactly. And that is a great segue into your podcast. No magic bullet, because this is where you do talk about. These kinds of things with a variety of guests. So, um, maybe just tell us a little bit about your podcast and your intention behind it, and then I wanna talk about your ba Maybe you can explain what your BA is.
[00:20:09] Bobby Koven: Alright, well listen, you know, somebody suggested, uh, as part of my. Recovery from my terrible depression is to join a thing called Mood Disorder Association of Ontario. 'cause they had a course called Laughing Like Crazy. And I thought it was just a way of becoming, you know, honing your com comedic skills.
[00:20:29] 'cause I've always been a bit of a com comedian, but at the end of the 18 week course. I realized it was group therapy. 'cause you had to check in, you had to check out. And it was actually good for me because I found out where I was in the continuum and there was a lot people, a lot worse off than me. So it actually made me feel good, but then I didn't realize.
[00:20:52] Because I got up and I did my comedy act, and, uh, everybody laughed. I mean, you could have said boo and everybody thought was, was supportive, which is not like standup comedy because the, the, you know, you got hecklers and you got people that are talking to each other. So, so it's very tough. But anyways, from there I met, uh, a woman who had a.
[00:21:14] Uh, a book called Different Than the Other Kids and she wrote three chapters on me because I've always been different than the other kids 'cause I twitched and I was hyper and you know, I was a crazy man and wild man. And, uh, then it went on Facebook and a guy that I went to high school who was a.
[00:21:37] Documentary, uh, producer, he had just finished doing something on Hermaphrodites and he called me up and said, this is great. He said, this would make a great documentary you and different than the other kids. Well, my partner and different than the other kids, Angela, she decided to move on. And so it was just me.
[00:21:55] So we did this documentary. No magic bullet. And why was it called no magic bullet? Well, I had a friend of a childhood friend who took his life. Mm-hmm. And why did he take his life? Because he had terrible depression, but he had the means, uh, he was intelligent, he had the family support, but. He just didn't wanna put in the work and he was looking for a magic bullet.
[00:22:23] Mm-hmm. And he never found it and we lost him. So therefore, the documentary became no magic bullet. There is no magic bullet. It's just hard work, patience, persistence. Uh, and I know there's another P in there, but I can't really think about what, perseverance. Perseverance there. What a team. So I aired the documentary and uh, the people that I aired it with, uh, at the time said, wow, this is really strong.
[00:22:54] We should collaborate. And I said. Well, you know what you've got a podcast on. It was called Living Jewishly. Uh, and they had a podcast on living a meaningful life, uh, through, uh, living Jewishly. A friend of mine, a Rabbi Yoi, was the, uh, guy that facilitated and I said, well, I already have a podcast. It's called What's In Your Toolbox?
[00:23:15] I just sort of made it up and, uh, then now I'm in my fourth season and I have no problem finding guests. Because everybody has issues and everybody would like to talk about it. And uh, my podcast is about de-stigmatizing mental health. Mm-hmm. So I try to use levity, uh, in discussions with people that have a bunch of issues and.
[00:23:45] Some of them, actually I just did a good, a podcast called Bella, Donna with a woman that had bariatric surgery and she, uh, had to have mental health, uh, uh, a year of mental health work before they would do the surgery so that she had had accepted it. But she said, I don't, you know, I don't have any mental health.
[00:24:05] I said, oh, well, she said, oh, well, I do get depressed. Huh. And I do. I, I do, you know, can't control my eating and I can't sleep. And I said, well, that's mental health. Yeah. So it's an amazing, when you talk to people that all of a sudden they don't even realize that they have some issues that they have to, to deal with.
[00:24:30] So does that answer your question? That's how no magic bullet came across, and that's how what's in your toolbox came across. And it's basically. It is part of my Nom Magic bullet company, which is a media company for mental health, and it's meant to destigmatize mental health through different kinds of medias.
[00:24:51] And you and I know because we're doing podcasts yeah, that there's millions of podcasts out there. But you know, a lot of people, uh, listen to them and, uh, like them.
[00:25:01] Kathryn White: Yeah, and I think it's important, you know, people will find who they resonate with and who they are drawn to. Um, you know, just Bob's podcast actually has some very, really talented and interesting guests on it.
[00:25:15] So I will put your podcast in the show notes so people can find it and take a listen. Um, but we, you know, talking about, about how people don't necessarily think that they have a mental health. Issue you referenced triggers. Like in my book, I talk about triggers and talk about the scars within a person and these things that are hidden inside that we don't necessarily know that we have until that moment where it's like, what is actually happening in my body right now?
[00:25:44] Why am I responding to this this way? Why do I need to run away? Why do I need to hide that? There's so many things that are part of mental health. Illness or, um, you know, in terms of cancer that are things that are internalized that people don't realize. And so. The coaching that I like to do is around mindset to help people to sort of unpack those thoughts and those feelings, and so to have places where they can go outside of the coaching to reinforce, I guess is what I'm, I'm getting at, reinforce that this is normal and that there are many people who are going through these things and to have places to hear other people's stories.
[00:26:22] And so your podcast is such a great place for that because you have such a variety of people. It's very interesting.
[00:26:29] Bobby Koven: And one of them was you and one of them was, and talked about living, living to thrive. But, but the interesting thing about, uh, about the podcast is that, uh, I don't even know what I was gonna say.
[00:26:46] Kathryn White: How authentic you are.
[00:26:48] Bobby Koven: No, not how authentic. Oh, yeah. See, the difference between a physical ailment and a mental ailment is, is that physically. You know, there's tests, there's cat scans, there's MRIs, there's blood tests, and then there's solutions too, which is, you know, therapy, uh, chemotherapy or radiation or whatever.
[00:27:11] But mental health is silence. Mm-hmm. You know, I use the analogy, uh, that people can get a knee replacement today and walk out of the hospital, and the learning curve is like a hockey stick. But with mental health, it really hasn't progressed. I mean, this is progression 'cause you and I are talking about it.
[00:27:33] Mm-hmm. So, you know, I don't know. I think if somebody has cancer, uh, and they know that they have, uh, tumors or whatever that they have to eradicate, there's nothing during that process that says, by the way, you know, you know, you, you're depressed, you're anxious, uh, right.
[00:27:54] Kathryn White: Yeah, yeah. Mental health. When I was diagnosed 10 years ago, um.
[00:28:00] Mental health wasn't really talked about. I went to a social worker for a little bit, but I really felt like she was preparing our family for me to die. Quite honestly, that was a lot of the conversations and so I, I have seen, I think, a progression in awareness of mental health in relation to cancer because it really messes you up, like it really plays with your mind Rex havoc on you.
[00:28:21] I, you know, my clients come to calls and they talk about. How they didn't even know that mental health was a part of it. And now that they're starting to acknowledge things, they can see why behaviors are the way they are. And so this leads all nicely into your vast Bob's amazing support team because we need to have support teams when it comes to physical health, but we really need to have support teams when it comes to mental health.
[00:28:47] So what is your. Vast.
[00:28:49] Bobby Koven: Well, my bass came out of my cousin Vicki, who passed away from breast cancer, and she developed this concept called Vast Vicki's amazing support team. My job was to get her marijuana because it wasn't legal back then, but I happened to. Maybe know a guy or
[00:29:09] Kathryn White: two,
[00:29:10] Bobby Koven: have some access to it.
[00:29:11] But I was part of her support team and she passed, but she, you know, documented and wrote a book. So when I got, uh. Sick. Um, I had a, I had a birthday party, a 60th birthday party, and I invited all these people and I'd be the last person that they would think would ever have mental health. I mean, you know, I'm just crazy.
[00:29:32] Wild man, Bob, I'm, I'm out there. But anyways, I invited 200. Plus people, they all showed up and I said, by the way, guys, you know I've been sick. And they were like, oh my God. So all of a sudden I had this BA Bob's amazing support team. And it was interesting because when I was at the beginning of my, the recovery, I would call people and.
[00:29:58] I would talk to 'em for two minutes or three minutes and they would placate me. But then I hung up the phone and I was back to where I had started. So they became my best. And there were some that were just casual phone calls, but there were some that re that really cared.
[00:30:16] Kathryn White: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:16] Bobby Koven: And throughout all of my episodes, a support team was key.
[00:30:23] You needed to have a support team. And one of my, uh. Podcast episodes was with a young lady, uh, who ha was bipolar. And her message was, if you are gonna be part of somebody's support team, you better take it seriously. Mm-hmm. Like, it's not just a casual thing. Like, hi Catherine, listen, call me anytime.
[00:30:44] You're not feeling well. Well if you know, so, so that was that. So now. Every time I have a guest, your cast Kathryn' amazing support team. If your name is Janice, you're Ja. Janice. Amazing support team. Yeah. And that's key across everybody that you must have a support team to help you through.
[00:31:08] Kathryn White: Yes. I love that so much.
[00:31:10] And the fir, when we did our podcast interview on, on your podcast and you introduced that to me, I was like, oh, that's brilliant. Like it's just so easy to remember 'cause it's your name and then your amazing support team. But I love what you said about, it's not just the casual, like, oh yeah, just call me if you need anything and.
[00:31:27] And I, I talk, I talk about that in my book also, that asking for help is a superpower. And so for you to have been, um, in a, a very difficult place for seven years and to be able to start as you're coming out of that, to be able to reach out and start asking for help and not just flippantly asking for help, but, but talking to people and this, you know, magic, you know, magic Bullet podcast, I think is probably part of your support team because it's you now.
[00:31:55] Sharing with other people what you've learned. So all of that to say that the people that are listening on my podcast today, or the people that are part of my coaching community can create their own personal amazing support team by feeling empowered to be able to ask for help. Because what I learned was that, that people will come and they'll say anything you need, but first of all, you don't know what you need.
[00:32:22] Second of all, you have to be brave enough to actually enact that, that offer.
[00:32:28] Bobby Koven: Well, an exercise that I can suggest is that once a week you must add somebody to your support team.
[00:32:37] Kathryn White: Oh.
[00:32:37] Bobby Koven: And you know, whoever that person is. And you know, I worked in Beijing. Beijing is a, is a city that has got rings. The, the inner ring, no dogs are allowed.
[00:32:50] And that's where the, uh, forbidden City is. And when Teman Square is, and that's, you know, it's green and beautiful, and then as you go outside the rings, it gets less and less. Uh uh. It gets less and less, more beautiful. Mm-hmm. So the question is, is that the people that are really gonna help you with your support team are on the inner ring.
[00:33:15] They're your nucleus family, they're your partner. Look at, you know, I still have a psychiatrist, uh, that I talk to, uh, every couple of weeks. So a medical professional is, is a key person and, uh. That's just what, what it's all about. And I'm in my, I don't know what, I'm in my 39th episode and that was one thing that resonated through everything.
[00:33:40] Everybody had to have a support system. Some people can't be a support system. I had one friend whose sister was bipolar and he just didn't wanna face the fact of having to talk to me. It really was a trigger for him. So not everybody can be a support team, and it's not because they're selfish. Uh, it's because they can't handle it.
[00:34:02] 'cause if you've had that in your life
[00:34:04] Kathryn White: mm-hmm. It's
[00:34:04] Bobby Koven: very, it's very hard. But I don't think it's very hard to find a support team because you and I have found each other and we're both support teams to each other. And you live far away from me and we really don't have, uh, that many intersection points except that you are at the colon cancer.
[00:34:25] And I know somebody that. A bunny who runs the colon cancer. So
[00:34:29] Kathryn White: yeah,
[00:34:29] Bobby Koven: it's easy to develop a support team, but it's work. It,
[00:34:34] Kathryn White: it is, and I think you also need to be open to it. You need to be open to allowing support into your life, which, when you are living with a diagnosis of, of whatever, whether it's mental health or physical health, in our case, you know, this community is cancer.
[00:34:50] It, it's being. Able to ask for that help and being open to receive and, and, um, you know, I write about how a cancer diagnosis causes, leads you to a place of having to truly expose yourself in a way that you've never been exposed before, to answer questions from people that you don't know and, and physical examinations from people that you don't know and go into spaces that you don't know.
[00:35:16] So, having people that you can talk to. Who even have that previous life experience can help to at least prepare you for situations that are unfamiliar to ease. I think part of that, the anxiety or the stress around those moments,
[00:35:35] Bobby Koven: well listen, you know, you told me something during our interview or our podcast, which is that you had a pity party for.
[00:35:43] A year or so, right? How long for
[00:35:46] Kathryn White: a bit, for a bit. Um, I had a pity party, so I've just, it's just been 10 years since I had my first surgery. And, um, long story short, came home from that seven days in the hospital from my colon surgery and was really feeling sorry for myself. Like, this is, I can't do this.
[00:36:03] This is hard. And a friend from Nova Scotia sent one quick message. I just wanted you to know, I'm thinking about you today. And, and that message from a guy that I hadn't seen in 20 years was enough to, to shake me up and say, okay, even though I didn't even know he was thinking about me, that energy was out there and I was able to harness that to say, I then now I need to get up and keep moving forward.
[00:36:29] Bobby Koven: So there you go. So. Here I am being the host. Again, the reality, when two
[00:36:36] Kathryn White: podcast hosts meet on a podcast,
[00:36:38] Bobby Koven: there you go. Uh, hot, hot Podcast squared. But the reality is, is, is that people gotta understand that it's normal. Like I couldn't get outta bed. And who did I listen to? Mel Robbins. Mm. And Mel Robbins had a simple podcast called 5 4 3 2, 1.
[00:36:59] What was that about? She said, look at jets or rockets take off. They go 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and they blast off. So she said, look it, you know, if you wake up and you can't get outta bed just 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, it and you're outta bed. Mm. So that worked. That worked for me. So, you know, the reality is, is that, I guess.
[00:37:23] Everybody's gonna have a pity party, you know, is having cancer or is having mental health. Which one's worse? I don't think it's a competition. No, but it still is hard work and, uh, that's why we do these things, to try to explain to people that it's normal. I. But you gotta do the hard work
[00:37:44] Kathryn White: to get out. You gotta do the hard work, you really do.
[00:37:47] And, and it can be a process to getting, to understanding that and to discovering those tools, um, and gathering the tools. But again, when you are open to receive, when you're ready to listen and gather, I think it's just the best work that you can do to create that support team and to find the tools and to, to get up every day and keep moving forward.
[00:38:12] Bobby Koven: Bingo.
[00:38:13] Kathryn White: Bingo. Alright. We are, we're just like rocking it on this podcast. You and I could talk for hours. Sometimes we do, sometimes we have phone calls and we talk for a long time. Um, so you are also a comedian, just really briefly, humor and healing. Yes. No.
[00:38:34] Bobby Koven: Well, you know, laughing is the best medicine. For me humor, what humor does is for myself, I love standing on a stage and doing humor because I can get rid of my energy and depending on the audience.
[00:38:56] Sometimes I can use my crazy energy stuff that is really sort of like off color. Mm-hmm.
[00:39:04] Kathryn White: Because
[00:39:05] Bobby Koven: it's comedy, right? Mm-hmm. But for me, a lot of people are nervous about public speaking, are nervous about, uh, about, you know, being put in front of a camera. For me, it's therapy. And so for me, comedy is a therapy.
[00:39:22] It's, it's a medicine. I. In my podcast, I always use levity. Like for instance, uh, I say Tourette's comes with a triad, ADD, OCD, anxiety. And now I have a fourth problem. I'm delusional. I think I'm a comedian. So what is that? That's. Truism. I do have a triad, but de-stigmatizing or, or somebody in the audience saying, oh yeah, and by the way, now I'm delusional.
[00:39:56] And they go, oh my God. And I've had people, not hundreds of them, but people come up to me during my performances, they go, Hey, you know, I sort of relate to that.
[00:40:05] Kathryn White: Yeah. That
[00:40:05] Bobby Koven: whole, that whole concept.
[00:40:08] Kathryn White: Yeah.
[00:40:08] Bobby Koven: And I studied. Uh, set up and punch, which is a way of doing comedy. Uh, some people tell long stories, set up and punches like, Hey, I went and saw my psychiatrist, uh, and I said, I'd like to have an opinion.
[00:40:23] He said, you're crazy. I said, I want a second opinion. He says, you're ugly. So, you know, keeping it light. Keeping it light. So that's how I use comedy, uh, you know, uh, and um, that that's what it's for for me. You know, they say laughing is a, is a, is good medicine. So it probably is, but
[00:40:47] Kathryn White: it is, that's
[00:40:48] Bobby Koven: my perspective on why I'm a comedian and why I like to use levity to talk about mental health.
[00:40:55] Kathryn White: I love it. And also I wanna offer that the people that are receiving your humor are having their, um, happy hormones, their oxytocin elevated when they are laughing, and, um, that it, it helps to bring up their spirits. And also, fun fact, did you know that when you smile at someone, you raise their oxytocin and they almost can't help but smile back because you are.
[00:41:21] Engaging their happy hormone, even just by smiling at them. So you can change somebody's day by making them laugh. You can change somebody's day by smiling at them or by sharing a kindness.
[00:41:30] Bobby Koven: You wanna hear my definition of a hormone? Sure. No, no, no. Because it's not a appropriate, but. It was in my head and now I've said it and now it's out of my head.
[00:41:45] So now I'm a little bit more relaxed.
[00:41:48] Kathryn White: You've moved that energy. There's a perfect example of moving the energy. You're so funny. Thank you for not telling your joke. You're welcome. So listen Bob, we are, um, good. We're gonna wrap things up here today. We've had a lot of great conversation, but I think that your message will resonate with.
[00:42:06] With the listeners and they're gonna wanna know where to find you. So I will put everything in the show notes, but can you just give a little bit of an idea of where you are and how people can find you?
[00:42:18] Bobby Koven: So my not-for-profit mental health company is called No Magic Bullet, and you can put that in the, in the show notes.
[00:42:25] It's called No magic bullet.org. And in there you can see the documentary, you can see my public speaking. Uh, you can see, uh, some of my comedy and you can see all of my episodes and you can subscribe and, uh, then you won't miss any. And, uh, I don't have a book like you, although I am working on one.
[00:42:51] Awesome. And, uh, so. I just want you to know, I was so excited this morning to be able to do this with you, Catherine, and I really appreciate you having me on because I never get to see you. I only talk to you on the telephone and uh, there you are.
[00:43:13] Kathryn White: I'm so happy that you're here truly. Okay,
[00:43:16] Bobby Koven: listen, thank you.
[00:43:17] I appreciate it so much. Well, I
[00:43:18] Kathryn White: have one more question for you. Okay.
[00:43:19] Bobby Koven: Go for it.
[00:43:20] Kathryn White: Alright. It's the big question. It's the one I ask everybody. What does living to thrive mean to you?
[00:43:27] Bobby Koven: Living to thrive? Because I thought about this means being able to find things that turned hours into minutes. Mm-hmm. Then trying to share them with people.
[00:43:46] 'cause if I can help just one person, it makes me feel good.
[00:43:53] Kathryn White: I love that. That is beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for that. I'm so glad that you could come today and we could do this and um, you know, share. Our passion for supporting other people. So thank you for being here and for the listeners. Bob's message today about dispelling the myths and smashing the misconceptions and challenges and the prejudices surrounding mental health is very important.
[00:44:19] And he, Bob, you have really brought to the conversation the idea that you can do anything when you have. Tools in your toolbox. So I'm gonna share your information and how people can find, uh, you and your podcast. I just wanna thank you so much for being here today and for sharing your own story of mental health and your best and just, um, reminding my listeners that it's important for them to know that there are other people who are walking the same walk, and that when you have tools you can support yourself and navigate life's challenges.
[00:44:53] Bobby Koven: I couldn't have said it any better.
[00:44:56] Kathryn White: It's almost like you wrote that.
[00:44:57] Bobby Koven: No, I didn't write that.
[00:45:00] Kathryn White: Thank you Bob. Truly, I appreciate it so, so much that you've been here today.
[00:45:04] Bobby Koven: Okay. See you again. So just
[00:45:07] Kathryn White: Well, I'm gonna just, we will see you again for sure. I will see you because, well, just as an aside, my husband and I are going to come up to where Bob lives and we are going to do some fly fishing with him.
[00:45:18] Going to learn the meditation, mindfulness of fly fishing. So. That's exciting
[00:45:24] Bobby Koven: for me too.
[00:45:25] Kathryn White: Yes. And just before we go, I do want to share that you can learn more about learning to thrive with cancer in my book, living to Thrive, A Holistic Guide to Living With Cancer. And it's available on Amazon and on my website.
[00:45:38] And there are pieces in there that we talked about in the conversation with Bob today that I think we will find, um, very relatable if you are struggling. With your emotions or with some mental health around a cancer diagnosis. So I will put that in the show notes. And if you have enjoyed this or other episodes, I would really appreciate it if you would leave a five star review wherever you're listening.
[00:46:00] This helps me to reach more people like you who are looking for support and guidance and a different way to live with cancer. Thank you everyone for being here today. Um, I look forward to seeing you in the next episode. Thank you so much for being here today. I hope you have a beautiful rest of your day, and may you live your life to your fullest.
[00:46:19] Follow your heart and thrive in all
[00:46:21] you do.
